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International Burn a Qu'ran Day

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
Why are we trying to make sense of this at all? It's like asking, "Why do sharks have feeding frenzies?" or "Why do monkeys fling their own poo?"

Trying to say that Westerners don't do stupid shit like this is stating the obvious. Can we just agree that we, moral equivalency aside, have a more advanced civilization than they do?

Okay, issue one, done.

We have to live in the world as it is, not as we'd like it to be. If the rest of the world shared Western values, we wouldn't be fighting there in the first place. So, what do we do? We either 1) babysit them forever 2) train them to do COIN on their own 3) stand aside and bomb terrorist cells when they pop up.

1 is unacceptable. Option 2 or 3 are viable. 2 requires us to kiss their asses every so often. 3 runs the risk of a similar post-Soviet descent into lawlessness. Don't know.

It's just pointless to complain about their culture. It's FUBAR. Accept that fact. Like the fable about the scorpion and the frog--"It's just my nature..."
 

PropStop

Kool-Aid free since 2001.
pilot
Contributor
I agree, but the time to make that point was before we got involved in the proverbial "land war in Asia." The idea that we would convert these people into a functioning democracy was laughable from the outset, and now we're relearning just how difficult the COIN strategy is in a place that is diametrically opposed to us in so many ways. We overemphasized the notion that al Qaeda's sanctuary in Taliban led Afghanistan was somehow pivotal to their ability to plan and execute terrorist actions against the west. These things can be planned in any city in the world, using the internet to coordinate. In retrospect, a CT strategy (SOF/Reaper strikes and law enforcement) is a much better use of our resources and it focuses out efforts on the real bad guys.

Brett
I'm in this camp as well - not a huge fan of the Landwar in Asia. I don't think you can tame these people and I think Islam, as it is practiced pretty much anywhere in the middle east, is incompatible with democracy and liberty. I tried, for many years, to give them the benefit of the doubt, and there are a LOT of good muslims out there, but, at least in the middle east, they can't seem to get a foothold. Even in the countries that experienced the "Arab Spring", all those folks souped up on Democracy...who do they elect in Egypt? A bunch of fundamentalist muslims. Nice job, assholes.

grr, arg...i gotta go to a bonfire tonight.
 

MasterBates

Well-Known Member
Phrogdriver,

Option 4 pre invasion would have been bomb them back to the stone age (they are essentially bronze age with some imported tech) let them know WHY, and repeat as needed. But that requires kissing Pakistan's ass.

Nuke it from orbit. Only way to be sure.

Sent from my PH44100 using Tapatalk
 

pourts

Marine F/A-18 pilot, former FAC
pilot
Isn't that a bit oxymoronic? Like almost perfect? :D Why no love for master Sun? The war colleges of all the services hold him in pretty high esteem. Anyhow, Sun Tzu is a theorist, Grant and Sherman were practitioners, perhaps strategists, but that's a stretch.

Brett
Because everything he says is inherently self-evident and not actually wise. "All war is based on deception." Wow, how revolutionary.

It reminds me of Stewie on Family guy after he read The Prince "Damn you Machiavelli, you have taught me nothing I didn't already know!"
 

helolumpy

Region staff is the 7th level of hell!
pilot
Contributor
No, Grant and Sherman were theorist, strategists and practitioners, they just didn't know it at the time. But I digress from the thread. Would like to discuss in a different forum.
For what it's worth General Sherman inspired CAPT Stephen B. Luce to inquire into how the Principles of War relate to Naval Warfare.
This started Luce on a quest that eventually led to the development of the Naval War College.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Because everything he says is inherently self-evident and not actually wise. "All war is based on deception." Wow, how revolutionary.

It reminds me of Stewie on Family guy after he read The Prince "Damn you Machiavelli, you have taught me nothing I didn't already know!"
Theres a little bit more to it that one quote. You can choose to be flip about it, but there's a reason that it s studied in the institutions that have shaped the intellects of such nobodies like David Petraeus and Ray Odierno. So, when somebody tells me they don't care for a seminal military theorist, I'm interested in understanding why. Chances are, they thumbed through a chapter or two and said, meh, and haven't really had it taught to them in an academic setting.

I'm trying to get people to explain where they're coming from so we can have a discussion.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
A "discussion", or you just reminding everyone else that you're smarter than us and our neanderthal opinions are laughable? Sometimes its hard to distinguish. :cool:
Not for me it's not. ;) I guess we won't find out if we don't go down that road. If all either of us is willing to say is that institution X says this and institution Y says this and leave it at that, then it's all decided and there's nothing left to debate, right? There are lots of "correct" answers, how one chooses to defend them is what's interesting, and (God forbid) we might all learn something beyond our preconceived notions.

Brett
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
supporting my last post.
So you're unwilling to debate on the chance that I may have an opinion different from yours and am willing to argue in its favor? I guess the thick skin concept doesn't apply when contrarian ideas are being offered as an alternative to mainstream thinking. You should have more confidence in your positions. ;)