is appointing a General & a JAG to conduct the preliminary inquiry into your actions... Things are probably not going to turn out very good for you. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...liban-corpses/2012/01/12/gIQADTmDtP_blog.html
Of course, this is getting its share of hyperbolic and uneducated commentary in the media, but this certainly doesn't make our already difficult position in Afghanistan any easier. Shit happens in that kind of environment. It's just a shame that people feel compelled to capture it on video. Brett
What sucks is these guys don't realize they are creating excellent recruiting tools for the bad guys, Abu Ghraib for example. This just makes the job harder for the guys over there now and in the future.
I agree. And not only that, but felt compelled to post the video on YouTube... Of course, I think the most humorous part of the write up in the Washington post was this: I think the video is despicable. But I have a moral compass. If your group has been known to behead people with a pocket knife, I don't know that you have a leg to stand on when describing inhuman and despicable acts...
How people haven't learned from the multiple scandals caught on film in the past is beyond me. Pure Darwinism. Awful that it happened in the first place, down right idiotic that you would even film it (or commit the act with a camera anywhere near you). Throw the book at em...
Yeah they behead people..but the counter to that by the rest of the world is always going to be, "You're America, you're better than that." The same applies with our own citizens in this country, we can't get away with what the average civilian gets away with because we hold ourselves to a higher standard. Sometimes it is frustrating, because we're capable of fucking up just like anybody else...but have much more to lose in most cases.
I wasn't referring to the rest of the world, just the Taliban. Yes, it's deplorable. Yes, it should be condemned. Most of the people that are saying so have never beheaded anyone. However, when someone who thinks it's OK to behead someone just for being <insert special group here> says it's deplorable? Yeah, I don't give a shit about your opinion buddy - nor should the rest of the world. I don't think I'm communicating my point very well, just that it think it's funny that the Taliban think it's deplorable.
They are all hypocrites. They brutally kill their fellow Muslims as well....Even the Iranian government commit crimes, embezzle money, drink, do drugs and other things that they condemn.
Crucify them sure... Im all for it. But serious damage has already been done. Less so here at home I'm sure, but certainly in the areas of the world where Al Jazera has major viewership.
Taliban might not have a leg to stand on with us, but to the rest of the world, they just gained another notch of legitimacy - all the more important, seeing as how they're coming to the negotiating table with the Afghan government. This just ups their position and they're going to squeeze every last drop of PR gold they can from this. Brett
Fucking idiots. They deserve everything coming to them. I could give two shits about what the Taliban thinks, but US Marines are held to the highest standards as far as honor and decency at home and abroad. This is not what Marines do, and this is not what Americans do. Lastly, why in the hell is there not a standing order somewhere in the military to "stop bringing your fucking cameras to work, you goddamn retards."
Not excusing or condoning their actions as I agree with folks above that the actions of a few are going to make it harder for The Good Guys and will lend legitimacy to the Taliban in the world arena, but neither Marines or Americans are imune to the dehumanizing effects of war.
I agree, and I'm not there doing that, so my opinion is worth about as much as pretty much anyone else's on this board, but I stand by the statement. Americans do not dishonor the dead. We are supposed to be better than that. We're really good at making them dead, but once they're dead...that battle is over.
I have never really bought into this notion. Sure it looks very bad to the so call "Arab Street" . Doesn't look so good to our western Allies either, but on levels that the ordinary man on the street in Egypt or Afghanistan will never get to. The reality is that none of those folks are going down to their local Taliban or AQ recruiter and signing papers. The folks that are motivated enough to take on a company of Marines with AKs and 4 weeks of amateur training or wear a suicide vest, are way beyond being pissed about some nobody Marine urinating on a lifeless body. We were attacked on 9/11 before Abu Ghraib, USS Cole was attacked before anyone was sent to Gitmo, the other presumptive recruiting tool. Claiming that any one thing is boosting recruiting for our enemies is all really about changing a policy, or causing more damage then is warranted. Closing GITMO may or may not be a good idea. Doing so because people that want it closed, or don't want to be imprisoned there say it is boosting recruiting, is not a good reason. U.S. Marines pissing on the body of their enemy is wrong based on their ethos and our western morality. End of discussion. It is hard to believe that video will motivate our enemies when they hated us long before for Rock and Roll, Hollywood, unveiled women, and the uncle and brother that a MQ-9 killed. Hell before they heard of this intertnet video they were convinced that all sorts of atrocities have been carried out by our guys. How is it that a video of Marines peeing on a body will motivate these guys when they have already been told lie after lie about outrageous conduct of our guys. They have heard much much worse.
I agree in theory, but the truth is that even American's have and will again be subject to the effects of war. The unfortunate truth is that our history is rife with examples of our troops dishonoring the dead. I always figured it was part of our role as officers and gentlemen to prevent this from happening, but at some point the notion of keeping war civil becomes a little academic.
I'm sure the delicate sensibilities of the 97% of this country that have been at the mall for the past decade have been slightly offended, probably much less then janet jacksons nipple slip though. The bigger question is, Who cares? I hope these Marines get their mandatory "How to kill people in an extremely violent, efficient and effective manner while smiling, being courteous and pleasant" training and nothing more. Perhaps we could send in a gaggle of politically correct bureaucrats, pundits and etiquette experts to fight our countries enemies next time. I'm sure they would be just as effective without all of the nastiness. Here is a crazy idea. If we didn't send our young men and women into a war zone to do our countries nasty, dirty work of killing our countries enemies, which the other 99% of the country won't do, perhaps the corpses wouldn't have been pissed on? And oh by the way, the Insurgents aren’t ever going to like us whether some corpses get pissed on or not. What exactly would the charge be for urinating on a dead mortal enemy btw? 1 month half pay suspended. Next. What makes the grass grow?
If a video was released of our dead Marines and Iraqi/Afghani civilians pissed all over them, how would you feel? Would you just say war is hell and move on?
That's a two way street though. I do agree that things like this get blown out of proportion by the liberal croud and are used in an attempt to leverage policy change. I also agree that we shouldn't necesarily be swayed by those tactics on policy matters. The other side of that coin is that many on the right, in an effort to discount the left's argument, will say that these things have a negligible effect on the overall hatred of the US - I.E. they're a recruiting tool. I get that as a rhetorical device, but I'm not sure that squares with reality. There's all kinds of anecdotal evidence that these things do contribute to recruiting. It's not a simple or mechanical as some portray it - guy sees video then reports to AQ recruitment office. There's an incremental aspect of this culture clash and we do ourselves a disservice by dismissing it or pretending it doesn't exist. Does that mean we change our policy? Well, that depends, but since this is ultimately a battle for hearts and minds, legitimacy counts and incidents like this are significant setbacks. Brett
Right. It wasn't so much the what happened at Abu Ghraib--and regular Iraqis would admit that far worse things happened under Saddam--it was because prior to that we adamantly told the world that we were better than that. Same thing with this. I'd wager that the Taliban would freely admit that pissing on dead bodies is less insulting than beheading a helpless captive and not giving the body a proper Christian burial. Of course they can rationalize their actions, but that's beside the point. The problem is that they see this video as red-handed proof that our side is not so much better after all.
Well, we, uh, adjusted our pacification plan for Fallujah in 2004 after something similar to that happened... which is what I think you were getting at.
Of course it would piss me off. But I don't think thats the point. Does the fact the insurgents may be pissed off increase their ability to damage our troops, decrease that ability? or make no difference? Dont we pay people (from secdefs former employer) alot of money to come up with sneaky dirty tricks that screw with the enemy's head? So, do you throw away some trained, combat experienced Marines for pissing on a dead enemies corpse? I say no, but that's just my opinion.
The thing is, if our strategy to combat terrorism is to create an Afghanistan with a functional government that is able to address the needs of its citizens, we've got to make that government a viable and attractive alternative to the Taliban. It's not that we're trying to win over the hard-core insurgents. We are in a tug of war with the insurgents for the loyalty of the everyday Afghan citizen who can choose between supporting the insurgency or the Afghan government. To the extent that we are associated with the Afghan government, the Afghan citizen's opinion of the US matters. Brett
Not at all and that's not what I'm saying. These few individuals are in no way examplars of the American Way or all of USMC. I'm saying it's a tad naive to think that we as Americans are somehow immune to the horrors of war. Again, not an excuse, more of an explanation.
I don't know what the maximum penalty for being stupid is per the UCMJ but I think these kids are about to find out.
