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How many ships does the Navy have?

hscs

Registered User
pilot
Agree with Lumpy. We also seem to be stuck in the mentality that we need to deploy a CVN in order for the guys on the ground to have CAS. It would be a lot more effective to deploy one squadron to a land base in theater - and then you aren't tearing up the jets and you would actually be able to provide better coverage.

As for counter-piracy - some focussed attention on the villages / ports where these folks operate out of would lessen the need to keep tons of ships patrolling the waters....just my opinion...
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I have to admit I'm shocked. We never really got to the 600 ship Navy but 278? Damn........Actually, it is 278, plus or minus -- the smallest number in some 80 years. There are 340 admirals, plus or minus a few.

It is true that we have too many Flag and General officers, SECDEF has made a start cutting some but I think it needs to be deeper. But as for the numbers of ships, I would put an Arleigh Burke DDG up against any of it's predecessors, it is far more capable and can do much more than many of them combined. Getting fixated on numbers is way too narrow-minded.

The Sixth Fleet has one ship, and I don't think it has any guns or missiles. I'm not sure where that destroyer came from.

That number changes all the time and I never saw it go down to just one, not many but there was always a few hanging out there. Why would need more than a handful anyways? Are the French going to invade Belgium? Is the Russian horde going to roll across Poland? Not likely. The decision not to send a carrier to Libya was primarily a political one, we could have easily parked on there if necessary pretty rapidly but we let the Euros take the lead, a CVN only would have given them excuse not to pony up.

The No. 1 one priority for our Navy, as demanded by the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Adm. Mullen, and the chief of naval operations, Adm. Roughead, is diversity.

This lays out the CNO's priorities pretty well, diversity is not number one strangely enough.

Where are the Kings, Halseys, Nimitzes and Burkes? We now have no warriors, only managers.

None of these guys were infallible and certainly not FADM King. Any serious study of his actions in WWII show plenty of mistakes to go with his successes. And while we haven't had a fleet action since any of those guys were around there have been plenty of people in the fight, including a few of our leaders today like this guy.
 

Pugs

Back from the range
None
But as for the numbers of ships, I would put an Arleigh Burke DDG up against any of it's predecessors, it is far more capable and can do much more than many of them combined. Getting fixated on numbers is way too narrow-minded.

Excellent logic as usual Flash. Lets just buy one REALLY good ship. That should work for keeping the sea lanes open. (insert rolling eye's emoticon here) As has been pointed out here multiple times, shear numbers isn't the answer but to say we have enough of the right ships to do what is demanded of the sea service and what will be demande of it over the next decade is not accurate.

This lays out the CNO's priorities pretty well, diversity is not number one strangely enough..

Page 10 bottom. One can argue since there are no numbers it's all number one or none right? Better yet. Go sit as a recorder on a promotion or selection board and tell me that "diversity" isn't a primary driver. You'll also enjoy going back to the tank for another week after the JAG review says you didn't pick the right mix. BTDT.

None of these guys were infallible and certainly not FADM King. Any serious study of his actions in WWII show plenty of mistakes to go with his successes. And while we haven't had a fleet action since any of those guys were around there have been plenty of people in the fight, including a few of our leaders today like this guy. ..

Certainly not infalliable but the only reason they were allowed tremendous success was they were in allowed to take tremendous chances and to sometimes fail. The zero defect atitude of today's military coupled with a policy of rapidly folding to any percieved pressure (e.g. Capt Honors) will ensure the continued to promotion of safe managers and not leaders. There are exceptions and maybe MRT is one, but I see less and less and know far too many cases where effective leaders had their careers truncated far too early.

That number changes all the time and I never saw it go down to just one, not many but there was always a few hanging out there. Why would need more than a handful anyways?..

The Mount Whitney is the only assigned 6th fleet ship. Sure, they have some oversight of ships transiting their AOR but think that you need a couple more of your own assets given the Med is still the major transit zone for half the world to the worlds trouble spots and that some serious ones exist right in the middle of your AOR might make sense to own some stuff. Your premise that we could have freed up a big deck for Libya without impacting other current or next ops is hollow.

I get the feeling you enjoy being the nerd who thinks he knows everything and just plain likes to think they're the new age enlightened one in a bunch of dinosaurs. Guess what? You're wrong, and like most of the liberal ilk you show an inability to acknowledge the change that is happening outside your narrow view of what you "know"
 

helolumpy

Apprentice School Principal
pilot
Contributor
My thought was if we need more ships (number of hulls deployed) for presence, do they all need to be top-end capability vessels? How about a high/low mix of capabilities. One DDG or CG with a couple of USCG MEC can do an effective job at counter piracy and other Maritime security type missions.

Since a new DDG costs 2+ billion and getting more money in today's fiscal reality is slim, maybe we need an alternative to the $2 billion ship.

My use of the "proverbial Knox class" was to show that in a low intensity conflict, which most MS ops will be, maybe we need a different mix of vessels in the navy.

If they could keep the LCS budget around the $500 million price range, then we should by a whole bunch of them now. But the vessels should be built to do only 1 or 2 missions vice the plug and play capability that I haven't heard of working yet....
 

KBayDog

Well-Known Member
If they could keep the LCS budget around the $500 million price range, then we should by a whole bunch of them now. But the vessels should be built to do only 1 or 2 missions vice the plug and play capability that I haven't heard of working yet....

Nah, let's just keep churning out $2 Billion LPDs. :thumbup_1

(Speaking of which, how is the investment in the San Antonio-class paying off for us?)
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
My use of the "proverbial Knox class" was to show that in a low intensity conflict, which most MS ops will be, maybe we need a different mix of vessels in the navy.

If they could keep the LCS budget around the $500 million price range, then we should by a whole bunch of them now. But the vessels should be built to do only 1 or 2 missions vice the plug and play capability that I haven't heard of working yet....

I understand and think it's a good point. All I'm saying is that the current "proverial Knox class" ship (the FFG) is becoming borderline incapable of actually doing any mission. So when you put a new ship of the line in the mix, I think feature creep is going to be the problem and you end up with another LCS.

By the way, LCS 2 looks pretty cool. I can say that because it hasn't moved in weeks and I'm able to look at it all the time when I fly over it. Does make me wonder what it actually "does."
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Now THIS is the kind of topic we should be seeing more of on AW. :) Good stuff.

Brett
 

Pugs

Back from the range
None
All I'm saying is that the current "proverial Knox class" ship (the FFG) is becoming borderline incapable of actually doing any mission. So when you put a new ship of the line in the mix, I think feature creep is going to be the problem and you end up with another LCS.

Why is it becoming borderline? Is it that they are old and in need of mechanical system refit to be on the line enough or is it a dated combat systems suite that needs updated or is it a core size/performance issue that can't be fixed without major expense/time and we're better of building a similar sized ship that won't be gold plated so we can build enough to cover suitable commitments?
 

helolumpy

Apprentice School Principal
pilot
Contributor
I understand and think it's a good point. All I'm saying is that the current "proverial Knox class" ship (the FFG) is becoming borderline incapable of actually doing any mission. So when you put a new ship of the line in the mix, I think feature creep is going to be the problem and you end up with another LCS.

Totally agree with mission creep going into ship design. I remember the LCS being sold as SUW, ASW, MIW capable because of technology... That starts to get expensive quickly!!

Unfortunately, the problem here is us (Big Navy) and what we want when we build/buy ships. We want all our vessels to employ the latest capability and it's expensive....
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Excellent logic as usual Flash. Lets just buy one REALLY good ship. That should work for keeping the sea lanes open. (insert rolling eye's emoticon here) As has been pointed out here multiple times, shear numbers isn't the answer but to say we have enough of the right ships to do what is demanded of the sea service and what will be demande of it over the next decade is not accurate.

I never said that, but I guess that would never stop someone from a good argument. And saying that we don't have enough ships isn't exactly a 'factual' one but more of an opinion.

Page 10 bottom. One can argue since there are no numbers it's all number one or none right? Better yet. Go sit as a recorder on a promotion or selection board and tell me that "diversity" isn't a primary driver. You'll also enjoy going back to the tank for another week after the JAG review says you didn't pick the right mix. BTDT.

Stop the presses! Page 10?! And bottom of the page! That must make it number one then! As for it being the supposed primary driver for promotion boards, I have no idea. But looking at the Admirals listed in Proceedings or looking around at my peers or immediate superiors, I don't see that claim ringing as true as some suppose.

Certainly not infalliable but the only reason they were allowed tremendous success was they were in allowed to take tremendous chances and to sometimes fail. The zero defect atitude of today's military coupled with a policy of rapidly folding to any percieved pressure (e.g. Capt Honors) will ensure the continued to promotion of safe managers and not leaders. There are exceptions and maybe MRT is one, but I see less and less and know far too many cases where effective leaders had their careers truncated far too early.

I am not so sure that history is so rosy with our Navy. Again you only have to go back to that time period to find it replete with examples of poor leaders who failed to make the transition from peacetime leadership to wartime rapidly. Some of the more well known examples are from the Army but the Navy had it's share to include VADMs Ghormley and Pye. It just goes to show that there is no perfect way of choosing leaders, even back in the halcyon days of WWII.

And I don't think there is some sort of epidemic of careers truncated due to a zero defect mentality, at least not from I have seen first-hand. There are generally less than 20 COs relieved a year and while CAPT Honors was a well-known example, I have seen a few of my COs and many of my fellow officers do 'worse' things and still survive and often thrive. I can think of a score of examples off the top of my head were guys and gals careers could have ended due to certain actions but didn't because their command gave them a second chance, most of which I agreed with and a few I didn't. Some of those folks are now COs or are slated to do so. The only examples I have seen first-hand where guys and gals have had their career ended was due to pretty egregious violations of the rules or regs, like sexual assault or drug dealing. So while there are some very well-known examples of someone getting done wrong due to un-PC behavior or actions, and I know that many here could name a few they saw first-hand other than CAPT Honors, I just don't see it as some kind of epidemic that is crippling the Navy as some seem to claim.

The Mount Whitney is the only assigned 6th fleet ship. Sure, they have some oversight of ships transiting their AOR but think that you need a couple more of your own assets given the Med is still the major transit zone for half the world to the worlds trouble spots and that some serious ones exist right in the middle of your AOR might make sense to own some stuff. Your premise that we could have freed up a big deck for Libya without impacting other current or next ops is hollow.

I don't have a view into what is there right now but that was never the case the 4 or so recent years I had a view on ops there. I didn't say that freeing up a big deck wouldn't impact ops elsewhere (again, words in my mouth......), just that we could have done but did not due to political and other considerations. Any movement of assets is always going to have an impact, whether it would have been a significant one is debatable. Either way the Euros and UAVs with some assist from land-based US assets seem to be doing an okay job.

I get the feeling you enjoy being the nerd who thinks he knows everything and just plain likes to think they're the new age enlightened one in a bunch of dinosaurs. Guess what? You're wrong, and like most of the liberal ilk you show an inability to acknowledge the change that is happening outside your narrow view of what you "know"

Thanks for diagnosing my issue as a political one, even though we haven't touched on that area yet. Seriously, you can't have an intelligent debate without attacking me? Kinda weak. I didn't realize I could be wrong with my opinion, since like your view it is largely just that, an opinion. But I guess since my 'narrow' view of the world doesn't always agree with yours I must be wrong. Pity me.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I understand and think it's a good point. All I'm saying is that the current "proverial Knox class" ship (the FFG) is becoming borderline incapable of actually doing any mission. So when you put a new ship of the line in the mix, I think feature creep is going to be the problem and you end up with another LCS.....

I don't think a modern version of an FFG would be incapable of doing any mission, I think that some of the recent Euro-FFGs are well-balanced ships that can do plenty of missions well but for much less cost than an Arleigh Burke DDG. I think you experience with the Perry-class may have colored your view a bit, but that is a 35 year-old design and the surviving ships are on their last legs with the USN, not the best of examples I think of a modern FFG. They are usually a little more expensive than the pierside LCS 2 but also more capable, I don't think the LCS is capable enough.

You are right that creep is a problem, it seems pretty much an epidemic when it comes DoD procurement, but it is possible to set some parameters and stick to them occasionally like we did with the Super Hornet and the Growler, both of which I think are good examples of getting a good baseline and improving on it as necessary/planned.

We had better get our act together with ship procurement sooner or later though, fiscal reality in the form of budget cuts will make that choice for us here sooner or later and we probably won't be happy with the results, then we will be talking wistfully about many ships we had way back in 2011.
 

Pugs

Back from the range
None
Thanks for diagnosing my issue as a political one, even though we haven't touched on that area yet. Seriously, you can't have an intelligent debate without attacking me? Kinda weak. I didn't realize I could be wrong with my opinion, since like your view it is largely just that, an opinion. But I guess since my 'narrow' view of the world doesn't always agree with yours I must be wrong. Pity me.

If I had one of your posts to make that assessment then I would be wrong. With 3700+ I think we all have a pretty good feeling for your leanings and viewpoints.

Politics and the military are inseparable. We serve at, are equipped at and operate at the whim of politicians that only the naive believe are entirely altruistic. To believe that we all share the same opinion on the course of the country and where our national resources are spent and what the best use of what limited funds we have is equally naïve. So, it is my considered opinion that you and I do not share a whole lot of the same viewpoints on the course of our country.

Of course, a web forum is not exactly the best way to fully express and defend complex ideas so maybe you and I are in lockstep with each other but the evidence points otherwise.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
If I had one of your posts to make that assessment then I would be wrong. With 3700+ I think we all have a pretty good feeling for your leanings and viewpoints.

Politics and the military are inseparable. We serve at, are equipped at and operate at the whim of politicians that only the naive believe are entirely altruistic. To believe that we all share the same opinion on the course of the country and where our national resources are spent and what the best use of what limited funds we have is equally naïve. So, it is my considered opinion that you and I do not share a whole lot of the same viewpoints on the course of our country......

Fair enough, but I am still struggling how politics got inserted into this argument even with your best efforts to explain it. I fail to see how my supposed politics came into this conversation until you inserted it. As for politics and the military being inseparable, thats true at a higher level but one's politics certainly doesn't have to impact someone's ability or willingness to serve, nor does it in all but a few cases.

Getting back to our regularly scheduled thread, it's too good to ruin this early........
 

The Chief

Retired
Contributor
It is far more than just numbers. Capabilities count. National priorities count. American exceptionalism counts.

Interesting thread, with not a little misinformation. While yes, the original "letter" obviously did not include MSC ships (incorrerctly ID'd in this thread as USNS ships), little history is in order.

Circa 1948 the U S Army operated more ships than the US Navy. In 1948 most but not all Army ships (including the USS Pueblo which the SWO world surrendered to PRNk in 1968). The world of counting Navy ships has been cloudy every since. Fast forward to the early 1970, Project 701 was born with an objective of reducing the Navy's inventory of ships, then nearl 2,000 bottoms to a magic number of 701. Thus MSC was born, still a part of the Navy. Partly to satisfy MARAD in their desire to support the US Merchant Marine, wrongly to reduce operating costs, in addition to the outlyers, the "non-combatant" auxiliary vessels were given to MSC. The helped mucho in reducing the number of bottoms to 701, as they were now hidden in an "arms length" command. Ain't numbers great. Then that scalawag decided we needed a 600 ship Navy. I do not think that was ever achieved but again, it depends on how you count ships.

Talking about not knowing: Not a few folk that should know that the flagship of the Commander, US Sixth Fleet is aboard a ship belonging to MSC. USS Mount Whitney is jointly crewed by Navy sailors and civilian Merchant Marine and belongs to MSC. They tried that with the USS Blue Ridge, Flagship of the Commander Seventh Fleet but a near mutiny ensued. or so I was told.

Note: The US Army lost the ships about the same time they lost their aeroplanes.

Well, back to the goat locker.
 
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