Get pregnant, face court martial

Debating sunscreen: I have a really hard time believing that anyone could get a sunburn so bad they couldn't strap on their gear and go if they used any amount of sunscreen and 1/2 a oz of brain. I'm about as white/easy to burn as they come and have had some nasty sunburns- and never missed a day of work. The stories I always heard about getting "that" sunburn was the d-bag who got rip roaring drunk and passed out on the beach for an entire day. If someone is that pale- Then yeah- they need to consider what they are doing, just like a female getting pregnant should think about it.

Since "missing deployment for a stupid injury" and "missing deployment to give birth" are going into the same pile-I'll take the double standard and let the women take care of being pregnant-Even if it means I have to do some extra work.

Edit: Not that I'm for "This is what we've always done so we'll keep doing it this way" but there is a huge input from societal norms on this topic. I guess we could try to eliminate the option to have kids as a military woman- and there would be women who left the military....and women who started law suits- So it's kind of pointless to talk about the double standard.

Coming at this from an the perspective of a dude who's married to a very successful and highly regarded Naval Officer. Said wife read the posted articles by CNN and ABC and nearly lost her mind.

First. Hey Senators! STFU about shit you know nothing about, like service. Their idea of service, for these three, stops about three paces beyond doing what it takes to get re-elected (or reappointed in the case of Gillibrand, Teddy K's replacement).

Second. To the chick from NOW. STFU. You're right, its not the 1800's anymore. You're now allowed to serve in the military.

Third. The military needs to have an avenue for women to "family plan" - provided the women do it in a responsible manner - i.e., shore duty. A woman, and mother, was recently screened for CAG. She had her child/ren (not sure how many) while on active duty. Her leadership recognized her as community star and knew that working with her to meet her personal goals was a good for the Navy. That being said, her and many other women are doing this the right way and waiting for appropriate career timing to have kid/s. For you NUW folks out there - a similar plan was recently worked out for someone you would all agree is an asset to the community and will make a fine Commanding Officer at some point.

The Navy recently put out a call for female flight suit wearing JOs to respond to a survey on women's retention. They wanted to know why women were jumping ship after their first contract was up. The fact that they had to be told the answer to that question goes to show how poorly prepared they are to do anything about it. Interesting that with all the focus on diversity these days that the Navy would being doing so little to retain one of its largest "minority groups".

You logic will be correct if women were not punished for sun burn. There is nothing to indicate that women were given a lesser punishment for the offense.

Now, if you had said a pregnant woman with a sunburn. I probably would agree with you that she would get off easy.

The green side's idea of counseling on "risky" activities include a 3 page question and answer that runs the gamut of safe sex to writing an ORM before you join friends at the beach during the weekend. I am pretty sure it does not work.
But something is to be said of the kind of people we recruit. Is it wrong to expect these type "A"'s to push the limit? I mean, it is that characteristics about them that we like.

So, to summarize, the Navy should make some special deals happen in order to promote more women to operational command, or to otherwise meet their "personal goals". Why aren't you making the same argument for new fathers? What does it say when a "similiar plan" isn't being offered across the board to other top performers?

Anyone who gets pregnant on shore duty (for flying billets) creates more work for the everyone else. That said, I'm on board for women choosing to have kids on shore duty; best possible out of bad options. An extended sabbatical program would be optimum, as they wouldn't be getting credit for the year taken off.

Clux- Interesting question. Coincidently I just finished a paper for my graduate program that is titled "personality profiles and the selection of candidates for military aviation training". Let me know if you're interested, I'll try to link it to a PM.

Short, are you suggesting that a woman can't be both a successful Naval Officer and mother? Or that the Navy shouldn't attempt to do something to encourage the responsible pursuit of both?

No, I'm suggesting that we don't laud the idea of special plans or deals for individuals, and maybe try this weird concept of treating men and women equally.

I've got no idea if someone can be a good officer and mom, I'm a little preoccupied with worrying about whether I'll be able to be a good officer and father. Hopefully, doing one well will inform the other, but the bottom line is that anyone in that position is going to miss a lot of their child's life, and there is no getting it back.

I guess, Thanks? :icon_smil

Didn't the Navy come out with paternity leave about a year ago? Apples and oranges compared to extended maternity leave (not that men and women aren't apples and oranges as far as parenting), but at the very least it's a step in that direction:

http://www.npc.navy.mil/NR/rdonlyres/FFA7649A-1550-4A8F-B115-8118BF71BA95/0/NAV08341.txt


Although I have a feeling where we might be going in this discussion is an option to take extended leave along with a "hit" on seniority/YG/lineal number so that mom's timing would be reset and she could avoid the dreaded "NOB" fitrep or eval. Or does this already exist?

-Jim (single, no dependents, what do I know)

You've never been put on the pad for telling a female to do her assigned work and then she has a miscarriage have you? I have, fortunately for me "are you preggars" wasn't on the check in sheet. From an enlisted POV in the trenches they can be a fucking pain in the ass, not all mind you but often enough for an "oh shit" when one's assigned. I've also had them that were 4.0 all the way except for heavy work.

So the female gets rolled back a year; what about the units she's leaving? How long until they get someone qualified to replace her?

It may be easy is she's an E-3 working in the lineshack or the gee-dunk, but what if she's a Full-system QAR? Or a pilot? Does the unit just 'gap' a Div O until someone can replace them?

It's a zero-sum game; if you need X amount of a skill-set in a squadron to deploy, the replacement must come from somewhere. You then fu(k over another unit by taking one of thier sailors/officers and moving them to a unit that has someone get pregnant.

You obviously won't steal from the squadron in work-ups, so you steal from either a squadron that just returned or a unit that is still a year+ away from deploying. From a morale perspective, that's great news to the individual that just got shang-hi'd to fill in for the pregnant girl; it should really help retention!!

The problem is that there is no reprecussions for a female who gets a 'tactical pregnancy'. She can time it so she'll roll from her unit just prior to deployment and will have about 8-12 months of free shore duty.

I know a few woman who managed thier careers to accomodate a pregnancy to coincide with shore-duty; why shouldn't all woman be held that the same standard??

It's not just a military issue either, one of the major reason why women statistically make less in the civilian world is that they have a tendency to roll-out and have some kids at inopportune times (from a career standpoint that is).

I'm sure the Airwarriors community will shortly devise the solution to the issue though!

I for one would be thinking about the mission at hand first, career moves second. Getting knocked up compromises the mission. Getting knocked up while on mission jeopardizes the career. Don't do it, don't do it. As for the ladies that get knocked up to avoid deployment, great f'ing move. Sign up for 18+ years of work to avoid 6 months worth? Brilliant idea.

Steve, you're right men and women aren't equal. We don't need to be, on either end. Both sexes can function and excel in different areas of the service. Problem is, irregardless of rules and cultural traditions, people are lazy and will find every way to underperform and still max out the benefits the system makes available. Much tweeking still to be done.

On my DDG we had about 50% or more of the females get pregnant before the ship left for deployment. A lot of those were E-4 and below

The military is a microcosim (sp?) of society. Look at the civilian socio-economic (age, education, race, income, marital status, etc) peers of those female Sailors and you'll probably find a surprisingly high (maybe not 50%) pregnancy rate.

Sadly thats probably true.

That's one of those odd things about the military. The country should go the extra mile for those in service in the way of benefits and such because of what they do and sacrifice daily. However because of this, it attracts not just the patriotic individual but those comforted by living in a system that provides every security possible. I'm sure the same ignorant welfare moms I have in this tiny town are just as a plenty inside the gates of Norfolk.