the story I heard is they got forced to close el toro, as there were too many close calls with marine F4's and commercial traffic....but your question is a good one....why didn't they just put the marines at yuma??
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- Thread starter EODDave
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the story I heard is they got forced to close el toro, as there were too many close calls with marine F4's and commercial traffic....but your question is a good one....why didn't they just put the marines at yuma??
There are Marines at Yuma... wondering why they didn't BRAC the El Toro Marines here to Lemoore, and keep the USN at Miramar.
Or sell back the farmland in Lemoore, close up shop there and move everyone to Mugu, NASNI, or Miramar (or all three).
Air Boss keeps saying that “NAS Lemoore is at the top of my list.” I’ll believe it when I see it. Also, there is nothing he can do. Short of turning the town into Las Vegas, it’s a shit place to be that can only be polished, but not fixed. I also don’t buy the arguments that the flying is better there. Sure once you get to the working areas it’s more scenic, but not really great training.
I hear that if you surf, Lemoore has the world’s most perfect wave.
The flying is actually better than Oceana- we have the Fallon ranges, the R-2508, W283/285, and the Lemoore MOA all in easy reach. Low levels through the mountains are a thing, and the weather permits flying almost every day (including foggy season, we have fewer weather cnx than Oceana). In Oceana, everything is exclusive use (except 1 A/B) which is nice until you can't get it scheduled or you launch late. The transit times to airspace are the same or longer, and there are no live ranges within easy reach of the base. Not to say the flying at Oceana is bad, but those are very real limitations. So, if your argument is that Lemoore isn't great training, I would counter that you aren't doing it right.
That being said...
Lemoore is the base the Navy forgot. Not only is it in the armpit where the CA coastal elites stick things they like to pretend don't exist, but there are 1,000 little things that make life suck more than it should here. We lack parts, personnel, and support to do many basic functions and generate up-aircraft. The "care factor" on the base leaves much to be desired when it comes to everything from public works and PSD to having a reasonable number of places to eat (unless you really like Subway every day). Cell service is absolute shit on base. BAH doesn't keep up with real housing costs in town. Utility rates are horrendous. The base gates manage to have traffic backups, despite there being nobody here. Parking is atrocious. The AC goes out in our hangar weekly, and takes days to get fixed, only to break again a couple of days later. At least three days a week, I walk into my garage and look for the dead rodent, only to go to work and realize that's just how the "air" smells today. Someone in my house always has a cough or sinus issues, sometimes all of us do. My wife has already had to get a daily and rescue inhaler, despite no issues with asthma or wheezing prior to moving here.
While not all of this is the Navy's fault, and it's obviously impossible to polish the turd into an Oceana or a Miramar, there could be a lot less "suck" in Lemoore for only a modest investment (or less) on the Navy's part. I'd suggest aligning BAH with reality, e.g. actually covering rent and 50% of the average cost of utilities like it's supposed to, adding varied and recognizably good food options on base, working with major carriers to improve cell service on base, and investing money in public works to get problems fixed quickly and properly. That would be a solid start. I won't even get into how we need better parts support, more chief experience on the flight line, and a PMI gameplan that actually returns jets in an "up" status to the squadron...
[tl;dr] Lemoore sucks more than it should. Some of that is fixable. We just need the leadership to notice and care enough to actually fix it.
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The Navy can't fix the air. I'd love to see an actual study done on the respiratory ailments that service members and families have before, during, and after Lemoore. The picture would not be pretty.
I thought somebody may something like this.
1) I agree with your entire second large paragraph. Don't forget that it's in the middle of nowhere. It looks and smells like shit.
2) Here are my arguments why Lemoore is a shitty place to fly:
-R-2508 sucks. It is not exclusive use. There are tons of interlopers. The altitude is usually capped at too low an altitude for some of our training (sometimes you can get it higher). The airspace is not big enough for our more sophisticated missions. No supersonic. No chaff/flares (I know there are exceptions to the expendables. Those exceptions are rarely used, if ever).
-W-283 is good. It has the dimensions we want. Can go supersonic. Good on the chaff/flares. The downside: it's the only one of its kind. Nobody on the west coast uses the other warning areas which means thats it. I've seen scheduling it become a nightmare since everybody wants the ONE good airspace. Also, there is no SAR det organic to Monterey. Sure you can coordinate with Lemoore SAR for that (with varying degrees of luck). But if you can't, well, get your drysuit ready.
-Lemoore MOA. Awesome idea. Terrible execution. I don't know what happens more frequently, an interloper causing your fight to prematuerly end (or more dangerously, almost have a terrible outcome), or Showtime coming up on PRI to give you a nuisance radio call while you're in the flats.
-Fallon. Good luck getting range space when AWF or SFARP is in town. Also, it's kind of far away.
I've flown very little in Oceana, and I know there are legitimate complaints there and some things about Lemoore may seem better. However, whenever I here somebody say "the flying is so great in Lemoore #westcoastbestcoast" I want to cringe. At least say "the flying is better than Oceana, but it's still not good."
Maybe I'm spoiled because I went to the FRS at Miramar. W-291 is 5 minutes west (exclusive use, instrumented range, full up). El Centro is 10 minutes east (live, intert, strafe, etc.). R-2301W over Yuma is useable (instrumented, full up, red air right there, etc.). Navy SAR is in town. The aircraft carriers are in town. THAT is the perspective I had going to Lemoore with. The flying in Lemoore, while scenic (and the Sidewinder is fun), is very disappointing.
I agree. But our access to medical care could be improved, and they Navy could provide resources to help people cope with the air and water pollution while they are here (Culligan credits and HEPA air filters wouldn't fix it, but they'd be better than nothing).
Right now, we're completely on our own to mitigate the pollution issues.
Yes, you were spoiled. Again, reasons the Navy should not have given up Miramar. But there is good training to be had in our airspace here. Could it be better? Absolutely.
I don't think you and I are that far apart in terms of how we view the challenges of airspace. But take it from a guy who has done operational flying on both coasts, the West coast has it a little bit better, but the East coast absolutely crushes us in terms of QOL.
"BestCoast" hashtags? Fuhggedaboudit. Those folks are only fooling themselves...
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100% agree. I hated seeing my kids sick there. Amazingly, they were fine both before and as soon as we left. We bought air purifiers for the house and ran them constantly. It really wouldn't be terribly expensive for them to buy a bunch of those and would show some good will. Maybe get a deal like they got for the Keurig machines in every Q room across the country.
Also, the base clinic is/was.....
The thing is that the flying in Miramar that I had shouldn't be considered "spoiling" me. It should be considered standard. For fuck's safe, Lemoore is the Navy's largest Master Jet Base.
Again, agree that Oceana may not be as great as Lemoore in terms of ranges. But nobody should consider the flying in Lemoore "good" for the reasons I outlined in my last post. That is myth that's perpetuated by people rationalizing their orders to one of the worst places in the country.
Also, Lemoore and Iraq look very similar from the air...
You guys should try Yuma. It’s a hidden gem!
Ha! True. I've occasionally referred to Lemoore as the land-based version of the Northern Arabian Gulf. They are about the same size, the heat and haze conditions are similar, and the airport is in about the same place. We even have our own version of "hot dog red", known locally as the Bay Area. The only difference is in the real NAG, you get midrats after your night event...
No thanks.
You think this is different at North Island?! Having had a SO who ran ASD, I can assure you we have a hell of time getting parts and keeping aircraft up. There are parts for our helos that the Army gets priority for in the contract!
Welcome to every base anywhere.
My property taxes just went up $200/month. I don't see the Navy fixing that for me soon, either.
Yup, I pay SDG&E almost $300/month. That's just one of my utilities.
Have you seen 32nd Street???? Or North Island when the CVNs are home? When your CO adjusts the working hours to accommodate for shit traffic, there's a problem.
YOU GUYS HAVE AC?????? WTF
Not saying I would ever trade NZY for NLC, but you're listing a lot of general gripes pilots could complain about at any NAS. But yeah, you guys should kick the ANG out of Mugu and move there. That is one hell of a sleepy base.