There always seems to be confusion about winds within limits for landing not applying to other evolutions like HIFR and hoisting. I can't recall the specific rules about HIFR, but I do know that air capable ships says that if you're going to hoist over the deck then the wind limits are the same. Despite the fact that this is spelled out verbatim in the pub, I've had numerous arguments with folks about hoisting people from a ship if the winds are out of limits. The end result is it's not legal. The landing wind limits aren't there for the 10' over the deck hover, but apply for the entire approach due to effects from the ship's superstructure, exhaust gases, etc. In order to hoist, you need winds within limits, so you might as well land unless the deck is fouled or some other extenuating circumstance. That being said, I don't recall the specifics of HIFR winds, but since it involves an approach to the deck and then hoisting, I'd think the limits would be very similar so I want to say that with winds out of limits you can't HIFR either. Another one that comes up a lot is "winds abaft the beam". Many ships don't want to give you winds abaft of the beam (apparent;y some HSLism ...of course....) despite the fact that wind limits are based on relative winds and say nothing about true winds. Since I usually depart perpendicular to the ships BRC, true winds from the stern are basically the same as true winds from the bow, since my hovering helo sees them as crosswinds. You do the approach to the normal spot so you can pick up the rig. Once the rig is onboard you slide over to port and come down to take on fuel. Hover references are nothing too weird, you just look at the boat. There's no "set" hover reference. I think there are HIFR lights for night ops that you're supposed to keep off the nose, but I've only read about them and hope I never have to look for them in real life. As you're sitting there hovering you just have to pay attention to salt spray, lest you make a bad situation worse by getting compressor stalls. Good times. There are two classes of HIFR rigs and I want to say it's based off of PSI that the ship can deliver. That H2P knowledge is long gone. Maybe Otto can tell us.
All the gouge I ever heard on HIFRing is that your burn rate is faster than the pump rate in the 60. Another piece of gouge was "HIFR = FNAEB" - basically, don't get into a situation where you need HIFR.
The flow rate was like 10-15 gpm iirc. I think it was like 50 or 60psi maybe?? I could be AFU about that to. If they got flow...I was set. That 30 mins of fuel got recirculated back into a holding tank and then filtered and put back into use as I understood it. That all went WAY over my SNA head. I was a SWOtard when I was doing this stuff....We were debating HIFR because we didn't want to turn around and go the wrong direction. I'm sure we would have decided to do it, told the pilots and heard more or less the same thing you said. (they were already in the air during the discussion....).
Clif Notes: The winds have to be in limits for HIFR as well, so if you can't land because of winds, you can't HIFR em* *I think. It's been awhile since I read Air Capable ships, but it makes sense and I wouldn't HIFR with winds out of limits.
It's a request more than a policy or SOP. Of course, the shoes take that to mean it's a rule not to be broken. I can't remember how much of your experience is expeditionary or big deck, but on the small ships, coming in at night w/ true winds abaft the beam starts setting you up for a possible trip to the black hole, mostly when the ship is going very slow. At the end of the day, as long as relatives are w/in limits, you're good, but it's just an ORM thing that can help keep you out of trouble. Again, it's not a go-no go criteria. Also, the HSL departure is a not as extreme (45 degrees vice 90) on take off, so w/ a bunch of buoys/torps/hellfires strapped on in a Block 1, every little bit of forward wind helps. It's quite normal to be pulling 106+ when departing before you've even committed to the power pull. The burn rate issue is a definite possibility, but not guaranteed. But no, it's not an instant FNAEB. I know some guys (they went as a flight of two) on my first tour that launched on a SAR and had to plan on HIFR'ing for a lily pad in order to make it to the distressed person.
I've recently met an old school HSL guy who has done actual HIFR. I think in the HC world there is little to no reason to HIFR for real other than you messed up fuel planning bad, but the ships we operate from don't always have HIFR capability and our missions wouldn't have us flying in an area where HIFR would be helpful other than the classic "bird won't fold on deck and you're airborne in the other helo" situation. So, while not a good idea, it's an option and maybe more of a necessity in other communities. The other piece of the puzzle that we haven't touched on is pitch and roll limits. If you can get winds in, then you can take gas from a deck you can't land on due to pitch/roll being out. I think the largest limiting factor to HIFR is that you better know well ahead of time that you're going to need to HIFR, because if boats do one thing well, its doing things excrutiatingly slowly when you need it NOW. I'm an expeditionary guy, so not a lot of small deck time, but you raise a lot of good points. In the Gulf in the Summer we'd vary our takeoffs depending on were true winds were from. Trues off the nose, we'd do a gator slide and take off parallel to the ship. Trues off of the beam, we'd pedal turn into the trues. But working with CRU/DES in the VACAPES and they wouldn't give you winds aft of the beam because some HSL East guys had convinced them it wasn't allowed. Not a "good if we can avoid it" thing, but a NO GO. I had to work really hard to convince a Cruise Captain that taking winds 10deg aft of the beam was OK.
It's a question that comes up often. I did an initial safety brief a few weeks ago for the next ship I'm going out on and even a Jaygee OOD asked the question. It's a fair question, but one that you have make sure the Shoes understand the subtleties of. Sometimes they just don't (or want to) get it.
Good copy on all- I was the final vote against trying it. Safer all the way around to make the run in the opposite direction for like 30 mins to land, fuel, and launch again. And like I said...Pretty sure the pilots would have shot that HIFR down as soon as we told them we wanted to try it.
The MD state police handles most emergency medical evacs to shock trama... they land on roads all the time.. when i was going to HS somebody working on the roof fell about 2 stories and one of those suckers landed in a field right next to the school. I see those MD state police helicopters all the time. My guess is it was for an accident... or some type of trainning
Sounds like typical SWOs. Taking a whole lot of time to decide on something aviation related that could have been easily solved by asking the aircrew in the helo. "CG 1234, Tower. What do you guys think about HIFRing while the winds are out?" "Tower, CG 1234. Negative. That's a dumb idea" "CG1234 Tower. Roger. We'll go back to doing boat stuff and stay in our lane"
During my MIDN cruise, I was aboard a ship, an old cruiser, USS Reeves, which had a deck too small to land H-60s. I saw them do a real HIFR. The Block A V-22s actually have the HIFR hookup in the cabin, though using it was prohibited. They realized it was retarded to have it, especially in an aircraft whose range is its raison d' etre, and took it out in the later aircraft rolling off the line.
Flew the HH-65 during the NHA Fleet Fly-In at P'cola. After 2K hours in the H-60, stepping on the RIGHT pedal during take-off was very different. Once you got into the air, the monkey skills took over, but breaking off the deck, the nose started to go to the left and instinctively, I added left pedal! There is a structural support beam that runs through part of the pilots doors. For those of us of 'gentlemanly proportions' it's a bit tight getting in and out. The viz was a whole lot better than an H-60!! What if you got a ship with a deck not rated for your aircraft? Which as an H-60 driver are almost 90% for the foreign decks and most USCG decks. Also, what if you could land, but the deck is fouled? Sometimes you might have a broken helo on a deck and you need to get a top-off to reach a divert. You many never need to do a HIFR, but that's no reason to never have practiced the skill once or twice.
I hate to throw interservice rivalry in here but now it is appropriate. You Navy guys are thinking like, well, Navy guys. Coast Guard pilots land on ships that are as small as 210 feet long. A cutter that small goes out of landing limits pretty quickly. It doesn't even have to be really windy out, just rough seas. a 270' cutter rides even worse. the 378's and ice breakers do ok but even they go out of limits at inopportune times. That is when HIFR is beneficial. Additionally, our cutters go out alone not in groups so that is the only landing pad we have. And yes, Coast Guard aircraft have operationally done HIFRs. It does take a bit of planning and a while to get the rig going but it takes less time to do that than to recover a ditched helicopter from the bottom of the ocean because he couldn't refuel or land. Finally,our burn rate in the MH-65 is considerably lower than an H-60. Our H-60s can take about 8 hours of fuel if they need to so HIFR is not something that really comes up for them a lot.
Guys check out Military Channel's "Modern Sniper" show, had HITRON on last night, lot of MH-65 action and me wishing I was back in Jax!
On March 3rd, Discovery will be airing coverage on the F/V Alaska Ranger rescue. It should also be a good watch.
03/12/2010 DIAGONAL DOLPHIN U.S. Coast Guard Chief Stacy Dasher looks out the door of an HH-65 Dolphin helicopter during a helicopter-rescue training exercise at the Coast Guard Air Station Detroit, March 10, 2010. One of Dasher's primary roles is to operate the aircraft's hoist cable, which allows the aircraft to lift distressed persons into its cabin. U.S. Coast Guard photo by Petty Officer 3rd Class Brandon Blackwell
The ramp from the first pictures looks very familiar....I have parked my -60 there several times on CCX to San Fran...bit of a squeeze though, especially with 2 :-D
Alpha, I hate to quote TopGun (well actually I love it), but that "S--- gives me a H---On". Rescue Checklist Part Two for a Direct Deployment of the Basket to the Dumba-- with the camera.
0310-G-4189B-002 Air Station Detroit Training DETROIT - Crewmembers from Coast Guard Air Station Detroit perform helicopter-rescue training, Mar. 10, 2010. Air Station Detroit is home to five HH-65 Dolphin helicopters, which are capable of performing search-and-rescue operations year round. U.S. Coast Guard photo by Petty Officer 3rd Class Brandon Blackwell.
100310-G-4189B-016 Air Station Detroit Training DETROIT - Chief Petty Officer Stacy Dasher, Aviation Engineering Shop manager at Coast Guard Air Station Detroit, looks out the door of an HH-65 Dolphin helicopter during a helicopter-rescue training exercise, Mar. 10, 2010. One of Dasher's primary roles is to operate the aircraft's hoist cable, which allows the aircraft to lift distressed persons into its cabin. U.S. Coast Guard photo by Petty Officer 3rd Class Brandon Blackwell.
100310-G-4189B-004 Air Station Detroit Training DETROIT - Chief Petty Officer Stacy Dasher, Aviation Engineering Shop manager at Coast Guard Air Station Detroit, looks out the door of an HH-65 Dolphin helicopter prior to helicopter-rescue training, Mar. 10, 2010. One of Dasher's primary roles is to operate the aircraft's hoist cable, which allows the aircraft to lift distressed persons into its cabin. U.S. Coast Guard photo by Petty Officer 3rd Class Brandon Blackwell.
05/19/2010 KANEOHE JUMP A U.S. Coast Guard rescue swimmer from Air Station Barbers Point, Hawaii, deploys during a boating safety event demonstration near Kaneohe Marine Corps Base Hawaii, May 16, 2010. The Day on the Docks event, which raised awareness about boating safety, included a 25-foot response boat from Coast Guard Station Honolulu. U.S. Coast Guard photo by Petty Officer 3rd Class Anthony L. Soto
