It gets worse as an O-4 (in some communities). You introduce yourself by first name and tell them they don't have to call you sir. Some still do. It gets to a point where it's not worth the energy to correct them all the time. Others "get it."
Meh.. I think the reason that so many JOs dont call hinges by their first names is that while some are cool and are just trying to fit in to the ready room, others don't hesitate to crawl up a JO's ass at the first opportunity that presents itself. I guess it's a matter of guilt by association.
....because they shouldn't. A hinge trying to be too cool with the JOs/company grade is like the guy who goes to college and still hangs out at high school parties. You don't have to be a dick all the time, but honestly, there'll be a time you have to school a junior guy, and you don't need it to be like,"Dude, I thought we were friends." Callsigns are cool, especially around briefs/flying (though I've encountered a CO who went apoplectic if a junior referred to a senior by callsign, even in the third person). I've had students go all sir-sandwich on me and I'll tell them to dial it back 50% and just talk like a regular person. Rank goes away when the brief starts (unless it's O-6+ for me, to be honest).
I was actually talking about in the briefs/aircraft. Also, the incidents I was referring to (lately) have been a case where I'm no where in anyone's chain of command. Just another dude with wings. But I do come from a community where it's a bunch of guys who are all, basically, the same "rank" (even if some are O-3s and some are O-4s). And everyone understood that if you're the OIC/DH/whatever, then it's your turn to be the pain in everyone's ass. When it's the next guys' turn, everyone takes one step to the left and follows ranks. Unfortunately, that can be too varsity for some (not directed at you, phrog).
I got what you were saying Gator, and I'll say to phrogdriver that it's different on this side of AD... I keep trying to throttle back our AR (Navy equivalent = FTS) OpsO from the Sir sandwiches... Yes, he's a Capt. Yes, I'm a Major. But in the end of the day - he's the OpsO, and he's got a ton of weight on his shoulders. My discussion with him tonight was "I know that Postal is a LtCol, but he isn't in your chain of command, and doesn't sign your FitRep. Your job is hard enough, herding the reserve cats - don't let him get in the way."
I also wonder if it doesn't have a little to do with the size of a ready room. My experiences have typically been with ready rooms of approximately 20 total aviators (currently 12). With smaller groups has come less formality, however at no point have I ever thought that our JOs don't respond to direction and at no point have I ever felt that us DickHeads didn't have the JOs back - keeping each other from looking stupid in front of the man. We're a close (small) ready room that uses first names and callsigns, however there's no ambiguity WRT roles/responsibilities/accountability/experience/professional respect. I think this is a fairly typical experience for CVN tac-air squadrons....... Bueller.?
I had a bit more of the LCDRs are "Sir" in my HSL squadron, and the CO was the fucking wizard of Oz in his office and only seen for AOMs and HAC checks. VAW was more of the Callsigns/Names, but for a point of reference, I was only a LT for a year in a 42 month tour in HSL (checked in as an Ensign), and was already a senior LT in zone for LCDR when I got to my VAW squadron.
My DH tour I got called on the carpet by the CO for introducing myself by my first name to the JOs. West coast VP was first name and east coast wasn't. I didn't know this and with my west coast background I did what came naturally. By the end of my first couple of months in the squadron, I realized the east coast guys needed to loosen the ratchet. The CO claimed first names belittled me in the eyes of the JOs yet I was they DH the trusted when things went bad or they needed serious help/advise. Along a similar line, during my CVN tour I decided to get a SWO pin (aviators could back then). While the carrier was in the yards, I spent a few months TAD to a FFG-7 doing counter drug ops in the Caribbean while learning SWO stuff. Since I was flocked LCDR (another normal thing back then), the FFG-7 CO decided I should basically be the XO under the real XO's guidance. Soon the JOs started avoiding their DHs and the XO and came to me when there was a problem. It wasn't me as much as it was the difference in philosophy between aviation leadership and SWO leadership. They felt I was much more interested in fixing the problem then laying the blame. When I was in my squadron DH tour a few years later, I saw this same difference between the DHs who did east coast JO tours and west coast JO tours. It always seemed to me that the rank conscious always had more of a CYA mentality then those that just accepted everyone knew who was the boss without a constant reminder.
In VP and VQ it was dependent on the command and the O-4 but sir was more the norm than not. In VAQ and the rest of Navy tac-air from what I saw it was callsign for everyone O-4 and below with no sir or ma'am unless you were in deep shit. I think there is a bit of a service difference though too since the Marines in the VMFA and VMAQ squadrons I deployed with didn't play by the same rule book though and sir for O-4s was a lot more common. Callsigns were still used it was more along the lines of what you would see in VP with it being dependent on the person, command and situation.
Similar experience for me as HSC (EXP) ... since we have Dets, the O-4 became "Boss" or "Sir" for the duration of the Det. Same applied when he rolled home into OPS/MO. Most other O-4s not filling one of those two roles typically defaulted to the "O-4s are still JOs in the Navy" mentality with callsigns/first names being acceptable. I had the privilege of working for some great O-4s, both on Det and as AOPS/QAO. They kept it casual and honest, which I appreciated. There was never a doubt when "Sir" was warranted though
I think just by virtue of the size of VP wardrooms O-4 types become sir/ma'am. Not saying it's good/bad, but it makes sense. Same thing with SWOs. You have LTs coming back as DHs in charge of new ENS types, so if they want to be all into calling another JO sir/ma'am, then whatever. When they turn around and expect aviator JGs to do the same, wellllll.......
and the fact that you call them "wardrooms" instead of "ready rooms". I suppose the differentiation is required because you have enlisted aircrew running around, but "wardroom" has a very blackshoe ring to it
At the end of the day, that's probably the magical secret of leadership in those rolls. I tried to do the same thing as an OIC (we had several REGNAV junior LTs with us), even if the actual word "sir" was never uttered.
Perfect. Timing is probably relevant, as well. If you get pinned/frocked within the same squadron you checked into as a LT...you still have some "residual JO power" there. Enjoy it while you can. Next squadron you check into...you've been a "hinge" for life. No going back. You'll be given more responsibility and deserve a bit more in the way of respect. Inside the Ready Room, and certainly in the briefing room...do what you want/what the culture expects. Don't let it dribble outside. It will only lessen you, diminish your rank, and make you less effective. Unless that's what you want, of course. If you're taking the pay...act like you earned it. No need to be a douchebag, but lead by example...not by "Hey, I'm still a cool dude".
Technically true, but as George Orwell continues to remind generations of high school readers: "...some animals are more equal than others."
I would agree with this. I always call Marine Majors "sir" unless told otherwise, even though it is not the norm on the Navy tacair side. Maybe that is just my VMFA RAG upbringing (where O-3's called O-3 IPs "sir"), but that seemed to be the norm with them. Their XO's are also Majors IIRC, so I wouldn't want to not be calling one of them sir, going in line with our own customs and courtesies.
(where O-3's called O-3 IPs "sir") Don't even get me started on this...I think a few here...who shall remain nameless of course, expect this from me. Ain't gonna happen boys. You can have a "LT XXX or CAPT XXX" in front of another stud, but dream on sweetheart. I'll accept the hazing...to a point.
Given your fleet re-tread status, that is even more absurd. Don't give into the man, you are probably a lineal number or two at most junior to the majority of those dudes.......not even trying to rationalize it to the point that this detail would matter, but just pointing out how especially absurd this is. I know there is some senior to junior Marine Capt blue on blue out there, but I always thought that was pretty infantry-centric. Tell me these aren't Navy LT's at least
Oh...and let's not forget about 7 years more time in the Navy...3 years more sea time and more flight hours by a third. Don't get me wrong...I have tons to learn from them, but get real boys.
So you're saying VT-7 is back to being the Gestapo squadron of Meridian? As an old man once said, the more things change . . .
I had a few try to pull the call me SIR as a LT retread. I reminded them that I was senior to them, if they really wanted to go down the lineal number dick measuring route. The WORST place about that? VT-120. I mean VAW-120. E-2 RAG.. Where LT NFO Instructors want to be called SIR because of my "RP" status. I can only imagine the fun if there was not a COD guy as CO. Was treated more like "one of the guys" as a newly winged Ensign in HSL-40 back when I winged, than at 120 as a senior LT.
