• Please take a moment and update your account profile. If you have an updated account profile with basic information on why you are on Air Warriors it will help other people respond to your posts. How do you update your profile you ask?

    Go here:

    Edit Account Details and Profile

Constant Peg pics

FastMover

NFO
None
Here are some pics I found of the MiGs that the 4477th Red Eagles TES flew during the Constant Peg operation back in the 1970s and 80s.

I knew that we acquired a handfull of MiGs from defectors, but from the looks of the pics we had (have?) quite a few. Any ideas as to their whereabouts these days?

More about Constant Peg. You can also read about them more in depth in Robert Wilcox's book Wings of Fury.

USAF evaluation of MiG-21:
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
.... Any ideas as to their whereabouts these days??
Yeah ... check the boneyard @ Davis Monthan .... here's one of 'em. Right next to one of our Teenie-Weenie's that probably bagged it .... :)

dsc00764smallwq6.jpg
 

Catmando

Keep your knots up.
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
Long before the Air Force's dedicated "Constant Peg" were the much earlier (and now declassified), Have Drill, Have Doughnut, and Have Idea programs which evaluated and exploited the MiG assets "over in the desert". And Navy pilots were heavily involved from the start.

In fact, Have Drill and Doughnut contributed significantly to the initial establishment of TOPGUN, and to the vastly improved kill ratio against MiG's in Southeast Asia. The reports were kept in every fighter squadron's safe, and were well read, wrinkled, and worn.

For more pics and a brief history of these great programs (and many others) see this fascinating site:
http://area51specialprojects.com/migs.html
 

HeyJoe

Fly Navy! ...or USMC
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
If you check the discussion on Baseops.net, they are supposedly direct from Egyptian inventory after they dumped Soviet Union.
 

ChuckMK23

FERS and TSP contributor!
pilot
Of course here's the Japanese evaluation of the Fishbed - vs. an F-8 no less!


"When you're out of F-8's, you're out of fighters!"
 

HeyJoe

Fly Navy! ...or USMC
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Long before the Air Force's dedicated "Constant Peg" were the much earlier (and now declassified), Have Drill, Have Doughnut, and Have Idea programs which evaluated and exploited the MiG assets "over in the desert". And Navy pilots were heavily involved from the start.

In fact, Have Drill and Doughnut contributed significantly to the initial establishment of TOPGUN, and to the vastly improved kill ratio against MiG's in Southeast Asia. The reports were kept in every fighter squadron's safe, and were well read, wrinkled, and worn.

For more pics and a brief history of these great programs (and many others) see this fascinating site:
http://area51specialprojects.com/migs.html

Scream of Eagles talks about it quite a bit. Lord knows we weren't allowed to and Constant Peg was best kept operation I think I've ever seen. Pretty amazing to join up for a clean and dry and see one right off your wing.
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
........Pretty amazing to join up for a clean and dry and see one right off your wing.

Funny thing is ... with @ 1000 hours dedicated to the ACM arena under my belt from the late '70's to the mid '80's -- I've only seen those birds airborne .... maybe 2-3 times and never involved in a "fight". I participated in several Red Flags -- and they were always a "no show" ... although we mimicked the tactics and tried to emulate the flight parameters that these birds brought to the table. I get the feeling they were aerial test beds more than anything else. Of course, I was just a broken down ol' Reservist who didn't have a "need to know". Even though I "knew".

They never showed up at any of our dets in Nellis -- or anywhere else "in Nevada" that we worked -- active or reserve, for that matter. I suspect we learned the birds strengths and weaknesses and then applied the lessons learned from their potential in OUR airframes .... I guess that's why "they" needed us .... and why "they" don't need "them" anymore (see above Boneyard photo for confirmation, at least to a degree)

One of their AF drivers who was @ FWS once told me over a beer at the club they had major problems keeping them in an "up" flight status .... plus they didn't want operational losses .... and there were some .... so I guess their relative absence (in my ACM experience) is really not so surprising, afterall.

Side note: my roommate at my first airline was LT Viktor Belenko's (sp?) escort for a time and had the opportunity to inspect the MiG-25 that Belenko dumped into Hakodate. He said the only things that Viktor was really, really good at were bitching and drinking ... he also said the biggest suprise the MiG-25 brought to our experts was what a piece of crap it was overall .... big blowers to be sure -- but the rest was crap. ..... and that's always nice to know.

Second hand knowledge on that -- just repeating what he said and what is now declass ...

Cat? You out there?? Confirm or deny?? :):sleep_125
 

Nose

Well-Known Member
pilot
As the Air Wing Safety officer, I was doing the monthly signing of the CAG Staff's log books. I started leafing through CAG's logbook, and back in the mid-80's he had two months of nothing but A-7 time (He was Tomcat guy). Next time I saw him I said "Hey CAG, I didn't know you had A-7 time."

Him: "I've never flown an A-7"
Me: "Oh."

He also had a mini exchange tour with a country on the eastern Med that we are pretty friendly with. Interesting tales of "training flights."

Nose

PS Fastmover, your quote "...this is where the food is." Was not an unknown LSO. He was a VAW Rag LSO at the time, went on to be CVW-3 and CNAL LSO. I'm an old guy, so I know that kind of crap.
 

Catmando

Keep your knots up.
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
.............
Side note: my roommate at my first airline was LT Viktor Belenko's (sp?) escort for a time and had the opportunity to inspect the MiG-25 that Belenko dumped into Hakodate. He said the only things that Viktor was really, really good at were bitching and drinking ... he also said the biggest suprise the MiG-25 brought to our experts was what a piece of crap it was overall .... big blowers to be sure -- but the rest was crap. ..... and that's always nice to know.

Second hand knowledge on that -- just repeating what he said and what is now declass ...

Cat? You out there?? Confirm or deny?? :):sleep_125

Absolutely confirm!

Although I never met Belenko personally, I am familiar with the debriefs following his defection, and the immediate and surprising analysis of the MiG-25. Incredibly, we found it was a crudely put together aircraft with many ill-fitting parts. And it was found to be far, far less "capable" than anyone here had known. It was a big surprise. There is also a book out about him, his A/C and defection, but I've never read it.

Also, as HeyJoe has indicated, Scream of Eagles documents some of our early Navy, super-secret "MiG Drivers" and "MiG Fighters" that did the Have Drill & Have Doughnut secret projects. These guys were unheralded giants of their day, and never were adequately recognized. The experience and knowledge they gained and passed on was immense. And some of them later - and not surprisingly - actually downed Mig's too!

And Nose is correct. The logbook notations, the schedules, or the ATC call of an "A-7" often covered a number of unusual – and unrelated to A-7 - "things going on" ;), back in the day. And more than once it fooled me, big time to my wide-eyed surprise! :eek: :)
 

xmid

Registered User
pilot
Contributor
There is also a book out about him, his A/C and defection, but I've never read it.


I've read it. Its a pretty interesting read, but it definitely paints Belenko in the "Hero" role. I questioned that he really flew as much as the book made it seem and whether he was actually that good of a pilot.
 

Screamtruth

นักมวย
This may or may not be relevant, but there exists an old MIG sitting inside the gate at Scholes Field in Galveston. My guess is it belongs to the Texas Air Museum located at the airport.
 

Screamtruth

นักมวย
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I remember that it had some markings on the tail that did not look "Russian", and I could not see it too well from the road...................maybe one of the birds you all are referring to?
 

FastMover

NFO
None
PS Fastmover, your quote "...this is where the food is." Was not an unknown LSO. He was a VAW Rag LSO at the time, went on to be CVW-3 and CNAL LSO. I'm an old guy, so I know that kind of crap.

I found that quote in Donald Auten's book Roger Ball The Odyssey of John Monoroe "Hawk" Smith, another must read along with Scream of Eagles. Each chapter began with an interesting quote about Naval Aviation and this was one of them. It was attributed to an "unknown LSO", so that was all I had to go on. Thanks for the heads up!

51JKN2KKGML._SL210_.jpg
 

HeyJoe

Fly Navy! ...or USMC
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
As the Air Wing Safety officer, I was doing the monthly signing of the CAG Staff's log books. I started leafing through CAG's logbook, and back in the mid-80's he had two months of nothing but A-7 time (He was Tomcat guy). Next time I saw him I said "Hey CAG, I didn't know you had A-7 time."

Him: "I've never flown an A-7"
Me: "Oh."

He also had a mini exchange tour with a country on the eastern Med that we are pretty friendly with. Interesting tales of "training flights."

Nose

There used to be a huge plaque in the Nellis O Club with all the names of the 4477th (they took it down after folks started asking about it). Although it was an Air Force show, there were always two Navy pilots in the 4477th and the senior active duty Red Eagle is VADM Chanik right now. When we went to Fallon, one of the Navy pilots flew up and inbriefed us before we met them in the air. Nobody wanted to "screw the pooch" and have Navy participation cancelled so it was kept very quiet. They said if you gabbed about it, you be on next flight to Adak and claimed someone actually was sent there.

As to logbok entires, I flew with my skipper in Desert Storm and in course of transit time during 5-8 hour flights, we had plenty of time to chat and I discovered he had been selected to be a Red Eagle after being a TOPGUN instructor and had pages of 4477 entires in his logbook that were simply A-7 or F-5.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Apparently a USAF Lt Gen died in 1984 flying one of the 4477th's birds in 1984. Although I couldn't find better links, I have seen this story several times over the years in various books and magazines.

http://www.f-117a.com/Bond.html

http://www.internetpirate.com/bond.htm

http://www.af.mil/bios/bio.asp?bioID=4734

It is standard for USAF generals to keep up their flight time but the dearth of official info on his crash is notable. In MiG-29 defector Alexander Zuyev's book Fulcrum, he talks about how the MiG-23 could be an especially unforgiving aircraft to a pilot inexperienced flying it.
 
Top