API Curriculum Mod

Just a couple points of clarity..
There are still 6 locations. Each location has several instructors. It creates a lot of variety. As for standardization, I am currently in IFS and the range of strictness, teaching style, and expectations is extremely wide from one instructor to the next. I imagine that will be a fair representation of Primary, but seeing as I haven't been there I can't speak on that. Also, my guess is that IFS is a good primer for API. As API expands on what is taught in IFS ground school. I would expect attrition to drop accordingly. I fail to see how that is a bad thing. Current gouge being put out is that 'IFS' has directed the schools to attrite more people to show the effectiveness of IFS.

Ya, stan is tough. I don't know about IFS, but it sure as hell would be nice if there was SOME manner of stan between the sim instructors... :icon_rage

And I don't mean about grading. I mean about straight-up PROCEDURES. (although grading is all over the map too).

In the last 2 weeks of API, the day is done around noon anyway. I dont think that the condensed version should be that much tougher because the water survival/physiology could be done in a few long days. Add an extra class or two per day and you cut API by a couple of weeks right there.

Sounds like someone flew the Horseman2 transition recently....

Well part of his problem might be that he is indeed sucking it up. Just sayin'...

Roger, and I'll be doing just that in about 2 weeks when I am checking out.

I never had Horseman numero uno, but I had the other ones plenty when I was in RIs.... it was literally that one person would tell me to do one thing and have another instructor bitch at me for doing another. Then DD-175s, I'd get bitched at for doing it the way we were taught, fix it according to the sim instructor's liking, get bitched at in the plane for doing it the "sim way" and fix it for the IP, and then get bitched at by the sim instructors when I went back and did it the IP way.... ridiculous. That is just one example. There were procedures (and techniques) taught one way and get bitched at by another instructor for doing it that way, and possibly even downgraded. "Who taught you to do that?" "Mr. XXX". "Hmm... I'll have to talk to him". Nonesense.

Oh, I do suck. But only if she asks nicely....:tongue2_1

And to add on to what Gator said, I be as specific to actually list the instructors who do that. It's bs that they do the procedures differently. Technique is one thing but a procedure should be taught first before even thinking about throwing in a technique.

I'll throw out my data point on the IFS discussion. I completed IFS Jan. 2008. The "new," difficult, syllabus had been in place at all schools for nearly 6 months.

There was still a big variance between the 6 schools. Some took it much more seriously than others. I watched 7 or 8 friends at my IFS school alone fail checkrides and have Performance Review Boards. It was a relatively small school and I was nearly the only student in the school that did not get sent to a board. A few ended in attrition. From talking to others I feel these same students at other schools would have slid right on through.

Review boards seem to do a very good job. They looked at the entire body of work (i.e. GPA, previous fitreps, ASTB, etc) but were still heavily influenced by IFS results. Several comments here have hit the nail on the head. Many instructors make it their job to weed out and attrite unworthy souls. I was very uncomfortable with this program putting the careers of Naval Officers in the hands of Joe-Schmo civilian because he works at such and such school. Especially with the lack of oversight NASC seemed to have.

Despite these criticisms, IFS is a program that is definitely headed in the right direction. They have some small glitches to work out but besides that it is very effective. I have felt much more comfortable and confident in both API and entering Primary. I have many friends who feel new-IFS really helped them in Primary. I’m much more able to visualize what I’m learning from pubs and in ground school than I would have been had I never had to preflight an aircraft, perform an EP, or make a radio-call.

Looking back on the training, API is the dinosaur. It is slow and inefficient. I’m glad I don’t have to put up with a three week curriculum but it can definitely get done. I did API just over a month ago and we must have been out by 1300 half the time. There was a lot of time to study; too much really. The biggest concern of half the students was “who can get a 100.” The extra time left students over-studying. Frankly, I never had to learn efficient study habits because I had so much extra time. In this way I would have really benefited from a shorter course.

One last thought… API as a three week TDY might make the most sense. Fly students down, put them up in the Q, run them through the course, and ship them back to wherever they’ve been hanging out pre-PCola. Add a second IFS location in Corpus and PCS and move them to where they can do IFS and Primary in the same area.

IFS is a little weird. Most people I know made it through fine. However, I know a guy (SNFO) who got sent to a PRB and attrited because his IFS IP wouldn't endorse him to solo because he was having problems with landings. He only had somewhere around 23 dual landings when his checkride came up (I think I had at least 40).

So standards are a bit of an issue, and my point is that you shouldn't assume you can't get attrited for IFS. That said, I concur with Nomar: API and A-pool is pretty inefficient and can probably be improved by shortening the syllabus. I was thinking more like 4 weeks, though. 3 would be pretty tough.

Well, at least when I was there in Sep-OCT 07 the IFS instruction stated that the SNFO solo requirement could be waived. Perhaps your not getting the full story.

Additionally, I know several people who chose to DOR simply because IFS taught them that they were not comfortable handling an aircraft. Better to redesignate them at that stage then to waste a bunch of Jet A on them.

Maybe this is Big Navy's plan to get more fresh meat to fill IAs in Iraq and Afghanistan. Attrite from API, and you stop by Stucon by 1830 to pick up your non-stop bus ticket for a ride to Ft Jackson leaving at 1900.

I agree 100%

I concur. When I went through API (about 3 months ago), the big problem that NASC was having dealt with student pay. It was a huge sh*tstorm that involved students, civillian admin, and practically everyone in the chain of command at API. Some studs were earning BAH, some were earning transient BAH (only about $400-$500). Some were making full BAH plus per diem. It was all over the map, and the only thing that seemed to dictate what pay you were getting was the person that processed your file at PSD.

There seemed to be no clarity to it. Classes were desperately trying to get clear answers from the chain of command at API, and the chain were trying to figure out what the deal was from PSD, but no one could get or give a straight answer.

A lot of ROTC guys walked with 5-6 grand of BAH and per diem money. On the other hand, a lot of OCS guys left API with 2 or 3 months of transient BAH and never saw another dime. The only ones that faired ok (from my experience) were prior enlisted and those that were married (w/ follow on to Whiting).

PSD got audited and got in quite a bit of trouble for reasons i'm not aware (something to do with the API BAH deal from what they told us). Needless to say, it was a huge confusing mess as to how studs going through API were classified and paid.

Although I hope this decision to shorten the program took more into account, I have the feeling that a big reason they chose to do so was $$. My $.02.

And you would be wrong. We're trying to transition API into the JPATS program - which was designed for the Air Force. So this is a square peg, round hole deal, and streamlining and shortening the program is one of the ways we're doing it.

There's a lot of agonizing going on above your paygrades to try and make this work. Believe it or not, this isn't some evil plan to screw ensigns out of a fun time in flight school.

It's going to suck. Deal. Won't be the last time in your Naval Experience.

Incidentally, all you "recent API grad" studs going on about the methods and philosophy of why things are done the way they are in the Program... it's sort of like a bunch of fleas on a dog's ass critiquing the judges at the Dog Show. No offense.

Respectfully sir, I call shenanigans. There is always some plan in the works to deprive us of fun or at least red tape all the joy out of things that used to be fun, always. It's our humble honor to resist it and when necessary adapt new and innovative ways to have more fun than we should.

I heard that we are going to mandatory 12 hour days in Primary to help stream line the Navy to be more like the AF. When the T-6's come of course...:icon_wink

Well said, but you're making the mistake of thinking we give a shit about your enjoyment and quality of life...and trying to deprive you of them. It's just really, really low on our list of priorities.

Still...right idea. It's the spirit of JOPA.

Sounds strange to me because no students are allowed to solo until they have a minimum of 30 takeoff/landing (per IFS instructions) and the average over a many years span and thousands of students is 44.6. Sounds like something is missing in that story??

Something I thought was retarded with IFS was sending 30-40 some odd students out to 6 different schools (some as far as 1.5-2 hours away) for ground school. Why not just have one big class in one of the empty buildings and pay one guy to teach it vice 6 different instructors teaching the same thing. That along with the gas spent on government vans getting students to these locations for ground school (if you were at the quarterdeck at 0530 and lucky enough to get one) seems to make for alot of frivelous spending. Not to mention that extra 3 or 4 hours a day I could have better spent studying/drinking...

Sir, I'm not sitting here judging or critiquing any philosophies. I'm stating a simple fact; when I went through API, the pay system was screwed up. I'm not how long you've been there or not, but i'm sure you'd probably agree with me to an extent on that (I know my instructors did).

I don't think these pay problems are (or were) so minimal as to just affect the beer money or the "fun" being had by a few studs. There were several students that were told one thing (aka, you'll be receiving full Pensacola BAH), and subsequently had it taken away for no apparent reason. The vast majority of students in my class, along with several other classes, had no idea what they were entitled to. Resultantly, several went through some tough times financially (had 2-3k taken out of their subsequent paychecks, and a couple were on the verge of bankruptcy).

Luckily, I didn't have to deal with this, but if i'd been collecting pay I thought I was entitled to (standard BAH of where I was assigned), and a few months later I had several grand taken out of my paycheck with no explanation, I'd probably be a little pissed off. (I'd imagine anyone would be in that situation).

Wasn't trying to stir up an ants nest sir. Nor was I trying to critique. From what it seemed, these problems had more to do with PSD than anything else anyway. Was merely trying to suggest the possibility that the myriad of problems that were occuring somehow could have been tied to this. Thanks for clearing things up anyhow.

V/R

Godspeed

And in regards to IFS PRBs: I've sat on more than one of those. Without giving away the shop, let's just say we don't really care about your landing skillz, we're looking for bigger problems.

Contrary to Ensign Grand Unified Theory, we're not looking for excuses to attrite people, either. But if you are stupid, lazy, or just hopelessly airsick, we'd rather find out sooner than later.

Regarding the pay/BAH thing, Godspeed. Yeah, it's screwed up. It's something that came down from Up High and puzzles the instructors as much as it does you kids. But it's not our policy (us, meaning NASC or API) and it has no bearing on the structure of API or how the classes are run.

I was specifically referring to some of the "well, I graduated last week and I know how it works" posts, not yours. You guys just aren't privvy to the behind-the-scenes of how this particular show runs. You just see the smoke and mirrors and white tigers jumping through hoops.

Keep asking questions, keep trying to figure out the system, keep applying a stink test to what happens in the Navy. It's the only way things improve. JOPA functions for the Navy like a free press does for the republic. But I'm just saying, in this particular instance, your theories are incorrect.

Although there was a grand pay fiasco, as officers we are all responsible for knowing what we are entitled too. PSD should be able to back you up and provide some info, but the officer should ultimately know the regs that govern his men and himself (or her). I was screwed out of some travel per diem, but after going back and being persistent I received what I was entitled. All instructions that PSD follows with regards to pay is public information. If you can't use google to get it PM me and I will help you find it.

A guy that winged a few months ago down here in Kingsville actually attrited from API and the Colonel from MATSG let him back in to give him another shot. He ended up doing well in primary as well as advanced and ended up Top Hook at the boat. He's now flying Hornets in the RAG. One of his pink sheet trackers from API said he had less than a 10% chance of getting his wings, regardless of platform.

That dude needs to frame that and hang it on his I Love Me Wall.