Even a blind Apache pilot can see at night

[pourts]

I just want my MPSMs back. I dont care if they do produce duds, the damn things worked.

And a longer range missile. Hellfire is having the same problem TOW did when the Radar directed AAA started showing up on the battlefield. It just hasnt got the reach we are gonna need when we start fighting anybody that doesnt wear a man dress to the fight.

Our community is lucky in that we still have m50's available. Even though they are a slower round with more duds, they have some advantages over the PGUs.

I understand your desire to have the most capable ordinance available. However, there comes a time when you need fixed wing if you want a longer stick. There's a limit to how much propellant you can put in a small enough cross sectional area so that it can be carried -- its just physics. I am more worried about the powerpoint that has been going around lately showing that the government isn't going to buy anymore AGM-114 or AGM-65 past fiscal year 2015. Bonus points to anyone who can find it. I forget where I saved it. Supposedly its just a negotiating tactic between the Pentagon and Congress, but I don't think it has caused nearly the public outcry that they hoped it would.

 

[Flash]

...the government isn't going to buy anymore AGM-114 or AGM-65 past fiscal year 2015...

Not a helo weapon but they are proposing to stop buying the Tomahawk as well.

 

[pourts]

Not a helo weapon but they are proposing to stop buying the Tomahawk as well.

Yeah, I think that's in the same powerpoint that was floating around Capitol Hill and leaked/ linked to in a couple obscure blogs. I thought I had saved it but don't know where it is now.

Also, I just read about the JAGM in the aviation plan that Flash linked. It sounds pretty cool:

"The JAGM program is fully funded and will implement a three-step incremental
approach. The first increment will provide a dual-mode Semi-Active Laser (SAL)
and Millimeter Wave (MMW) seeker combined with a multi-mode fuze (height of
burst, delay, and point detonate) and a shaped-charge warhead with blast-frag
capabilities. The MMW guidance can be activated while still on the aircraft giving
the operator a fire-and-forget capability. The second increment will increase the
maximum range to 12 kilometers and add an Imaging Infrared (IIR) mode to the
seeker for improved lethality, flexibility in modes of fire, advanced
countermeasures capability, and additional capability in an obscured battlefield.
The third increment will expand the missile envelope to 16 kilometers and
incorporate the AV-8B and F-35 as objective platforms. Marine Corps integration
on the AH-1Z begins in FY15 with an IOC in FY19."

 

[Lawman]

JAGM in some way shape or other name has already fallen apart before the finish line 3 times now. Thats what makes me uncomfortable about "F, it lets go all in" on this hand. It is funny that we are essentially asking for Brimstone/114L's with slightly better capes and acting like its a revolution in weapons design.We already have recorded kills with Hellfire out past 8km, they just have a tendency to run out of control propellent not inertia so the Pk is significantly lower. Id even be willing to lose the fabled 16 missile configuration that will never ever happen. Standoff would be outstanding for us because of our lack of organic air and our communities inability to coordinate for SEAD.

I caught a Master Gunner Branch briefing on it and the soonest we are supposed to see the weapon is some time in 2019. Given the rate my community just consumes Hellfire because its every GFCs flavor of choice I hope that doesnt leave us going like everybody in Libya did and running out of Brimstone/etc.

 

[Hotdogs]

Our community is lucky in that we still have m50's available. Even though they are a slower round with more duds, they have some advantages over the PGUs.

Just curious as to why you think there' an advantage to the m50 series, it's practically treated like cancer to RW pilots. I understand A/A arena might be different for you guys.

JAGM is still on the books for the USMC, it was dropped, and now picked back up and that's coming from some sources at the test squadrons. It's important to develop a successor to the HF just due to the sensor capabilities of RW platforms catching up with legacy FW pods. Old RW sensors have have been pretty shatastic up until late before TADs, Brightstar BII and the TSS. Now that the sensors can reach out as far as the missile and in some cases further than the HF we're only limiting ourselves. I think FY15 is a generous IOC for JAGM on skids though.

 

[pourts]

Just curious as to why you think there' an advantage to the m50 series, it's practically treated like cancer to RW pilots. I understand A/A arena might be different for you guys.

JAGM is still on the books for the USMC, it was dropped, and now picked back up and that's coming from some sources at the test squadrons. It's important to develop a successor to the HF just due to the sensor capabilities of RW platforms catching up with legacy FW pods. Old RW sensors have have been pretty shatastic up until late before TADs, Brightstar BII and the TSS. Now that the sensors can reach out as far as the missile and in some cases further than the HF we're only limiting ourselves. I think FY15 is a generous IOC for JAGM on skids though.

M50 would never be used for A/A, and its not the best choice for all targets, but it is an option that has advantages in certain circumstances. I forget the classification on the 20mm round discussion so I am not going into any more specifics. One thing to consider is that our guns shoot very differently. Its been a bit since I saw a Z diagram, but I employ mine in a 450 knot dive at 4000 - 6000' slant range at 6000 rounds per minute. I shoot a 1-2 second burst, putting 100-200 rounds on deck and don't adjust or walk my rounds onto the target (hopefully). On your run in you can squeeze off 3 or 4 bursts, adjusting each time but with a slower rate of fire and much slower airspeed.

Yeah, FY15 doesn't seem practical.

 

[Lawman]

How's the Marine side doing on Hellfire's?

I know we stopped shooting our C models due to them failing badly at live fires to the point of being unsafe. Now the F models all seem to be running out of shelf life but we had already expended a lot of them in the last 10 years so its not a huge loss.

 

[Hotdogs]

We still shoot Bravos and Quebecs in training. I have yet to see one shit the bed on me and go stupid. Although I have seen B flight motors fail to engage and plant right in front of our section on more than one occasion. Seems to be a semi-frequent occurrence. Not really sure where the current inventory is at but I think well be shooting them for some time to come.

 

[Lawman]

Wow... Ive never even seen a B model. Then again nobody knows what the L models are gonna do with how old they are.

I watched a C do its best impersonation of an ICMB. That was pretty much the end of that Lot.

We are actually running into issues with ranges just because the SDZ on a SAL II is so much larger for our requirements than the old SAL I's.

 

[Gatordev]

Wow... Ive never even seen a B model. Then again nobody knows what the L models are gonna do with how old they are.

Interesting. There's some initial interest in L models within the DoN, so I wonder if they'll stick around.

 

[Hotdogs]

We are actually running into issues with ranges just because the SDZ on a SAL II is so much larger for our requirements than the old SAL I's.

I feel your pain. There are plenty of training requirements to shoot live missiles for pilots just not enough ranges. Pretty sure east coast HMLAs have to wait to goto the 2507s or 2501s or det out somewhere to punch codes.

 

[pourts]

I feel your pain. There are plenty of training requirements to shoot live missiles for pilots just not enough ranges. Pretty sure east coast HMLAs have to wait to goto the 2507s or 2501s or det out somewhere to punch codes.

Do you guys have T&R codes that require live drops? We have separate codes for live, but nobody really tracks them and nobody is going to go red in a matrix for not having a live drop in the last 90 days for example.

 

[Lawman]

Gator there are still a lot of L's in the War Stock. Im honestly surprised since all it needs is a platform with an INS transfer alignment capability and a laser to look at that more platforms havent come shopping to use them. UAV's seem like they'd be a great customer for the system since a LOBL wouldnt have near the sensitivity trying to steer a SAL II on to say some ISIS Tacoma driving around Iraq. There are some now known issues with the weapon when using a radar handover but for what we call a TADs to RF handover if it goes LOBL its gonna eat what you send it at.

Do you guys have T&R codes that require live drops? We have separate codes for live, but nobody really tracks them and nobody is going to go red in a matrix for not having a live drop in the last 90 days for example.

There is no requirement for live fire with 114's in the Army. Its just something we really want guys to do at least once so they can see how everything works. Biggest exposure is getting guys to understand that its not like the gun or a rocket that pops instantaneous, you have to hold the trigger for a solid 2 seconds before it ignites. People have double tapped missiles because that 2 seconds feels like an eternity and they squeeze 1.5ish... pause/release... squeeze again trying to fix it and the computer puts 2 in the air.

 

[Hotdogs]

Do you guys have T&R codes that require live drops? We have separate codes for live, but nobody really tracks them and nobody is going to go red in a matrix for not having a live drop in the last 90 days for example.

We have the same deal, and typically it's an annual shootex that we expend all on the PGM NCEA. We have ordnance trackers and sim/aircraft events for shooting HF, APKWS, couple of nonstandard rockets (illum/flèchette) and before it went extinct - TOW. Nobody goes red either or gets put on a no fly list and off of the top of my head it's annual repunch.