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O-4 List out (last year)

P

Pags

N/A
pilot
nittany03 said:
Bingo. Yes, as is often the case here, I was spitballing, and deliberately made my argument a bit arbitrary and a bit hyperbolic. I wanted to see what would happen if I kicked over the anthill; I really think if we collectively agreed to stop accepting so much self-inflicted pain, and at least tried to put half that pain into solving what Brett rightfully says are complicated, intractable, pain-in-the-ass structural problems, we'd be better off. Because RLSO is also right. Just because change is hard doesn't mean change is bad.

Flash has a point; we don't want to slavishly use WWII or any era as a baseline. But we have a bad habit of setting a system in stone, letting a bureaucracy grow up around it, and then saying "this is how it has to be." No, it doesn't. The only place it has to be that way is in our own minds. Other options still exist even if you don't realize that they do. Use the power we have, and persuade those who have the power we don't. If laws need to be changed, then laws need to be changed. Yeah, you have to evaluate, screen, and sometimes get rid of people. The goal is that when that is done, they don't think it's happened for stupid reasons. Fixing this properly is a continuous, iterative process.
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So you're advocating some sort of ISIC of ISICs to ensure that staffs aren't useless? Maybe an OSD level staff to regulate all staffs? Or would an existing staff be used? If so, how would it have to grow (bloat) in order to accomplish this new task?
 
Brett327

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
lowflier03 said:
This is the equivalent of a wardroom discussion environment, not a policy review board. Hence this is exactly the kind of place and the kind of discussions that we should be having. Talking about how inefficient and unorganized the staffs, acquisitions process, promotions boards, etc. are should be done here. Just because we are spitballing solutions that probably won't get implemented isn't a bad thing. You seem to repeatedly shoot down any thoughts of change for these processes.

Just because we have made FITREPS "kind of work," (if you know how to game them correctly) doesn't mean that they are efficient, or working as intended. Just because we found a place to stash many senior officers while still leaving other staffs shorthanded doesn't mean that the system shouldn't be changed. We all understand the improbability of true reform in these areas. But if no one discusses them if and we don't spitball answers, then we will assuredly be stuck with what we have until the system collapses under its own stupidity. I think this recent round of O-4 and DH promotions proves that we need reform. But hey, what do I know.
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I don't have any issues with guys spitballing or engaging in thought experiments - that's all good stuff. I just want people to have realistic expectations about what is possible in terms of change to the system we now live under. Please don't mistake that for me being against change or advocating for the current system. As I indicated earlier, I do believe that there are lots of places to trim the fat on staffs, but I also think it's a very easy target for people to jump on the bandwagon and rail against something they may not completely understand. Not all staffs are created equal and there's a lot of potential for throwing babies out with bathwater. So, when I hear people say things like "we should cut staffs (or GOFOs or O6) by 50% across the board," that worries me a bit and makes me think that person doesn't really understand what they're asking for. Hope that helps clairify my point.
 
nittany03

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Pags said:
So you're advocating some sort of ISIC of ISICs to ensure that staffs aren't useless? Maybe an OSD level staff to regulate all staffs? Or would an existing staff be used? If so, how would it have to grow (bloat) in order to accomplish this new task?
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Honestly, in my uneducated opinion, I think that if this pie-in-the-sky idea were actually to happen, you would need to have an OSD-wide "staff BRAC round" followed by procedures put in place to allow OSD, SECNAV, and senior commanders the ability and the incentive to abolish positions that are not contributing to the mission. Or every four years or so, mandate that another BRAC-like entity take an objective look at the efficacy of the bureaucracy (scary phrase) and recommend cuts/realignments/changes. I think an ad-hoc approach like that would do better than a standing organization, because as Pags says, permanent organizations will bloat.
 
P

Pags

N/A
pilot
nittany03 said:
Honestly, in my uneducated opinion, I think that if this pie-in-the-sky idea were actually to happen, you would need to have an OSD-wide "staff BRAC round" followed by procedures put in place to allow OSD, SECNAV, and senior commanders the ability and the incentive to abolish positions that are not contributing to the mission. Or every four years or so, mandate that another BRAC-like entity take an objective look at the efficacy of the bureaucracy (scary phrase) and recommend cuts/realignments/changes. I think an ad-hoc approach like that would do better than a standing organization, because as Pags says, permanent organizations will bloat.
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You do NOT want OSD level oversight on something like this. The Navy would be constantly defending every billet to an OSD Staff and which would detract even more from core missions. I deal with OSD oversight on a routine basis and it's not something you want to bring in to your house. Added oversight is never a workable solution.

The ability to stand up/down organizations is already there and the process of IDing the need is ongoing at TYCOM and higher. With resources spread thin and even CVN RCOH up for discussion you'd better believe that USFF and CNAF are constantly looking at ROC/POEs and manning.
 
S

subreservist

Well-Known Member
ReserveOfficerRecruiter said:
Please excuse my sidetracking off of the current issue being discussed for a moment, but...

I completely buy into the idea that Active Line results would come out earlier than Reserve Line since they met 2 weeks earlier. However, how in the world does Active Staff meet two weeks after Reserve Line yet their results were just posted? I know the timeline for each isn't the same, and I know I can't apply common sense to anyting having to do with the Navy and promotions, but come on!

Ok rant over, resume discussion on the botched Active Line results.
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You got me on that one...lol! I was tryin' to make the system work, but obviously standard logic doesn't apply to the approval process. It's probably as simple as a standard in/out box where the papers that arrive last end up on top of the pile and are the first to be looked at...after the appropriate authority "reviews" a few pieces of paper that's it until the next time they feel like attacking the pile...lol! And by the that time more papers arrive on top!
 
EODDave

EODDave

The pastures are greener!
pilot
Super Moderator
nittany03 said:
There are whole flag-level commands and staffs that should go away in the name of killing bureaucracy. Want personnel reform? Take the WWII USN org chart, take today's, and appoint a commission (66 percent civilian businesspeople, 33 percent military officers) whose task is to reduce 50 percent of the flag billets in the Navy to O-6 billets, reduce the number of stars necessary to hold the remaining ones, and gut their staffs accordingly. Secondary task: look at how many of the remaining O-6 billets can be held by an O-5.

Heck, make that DOD-wide. The Air Force would freak out.

Hozer does have a point about non-flying aviator billets, though.
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This has already happened in the USN in the last few years. Admirals were sent home, job positions had rank cuts made and staffs have been culled. Lowest promotion rates to 1 star by about 25%. It's happening, you may not see it, but it is happening.
 
BusyBee604

BusyBee604

St. Francis/Hugh Hefner Combo!
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
nittany03 said:
Well, it appears that for Pags and I, our days are officially numbered as members of JOPA . . . :eek:
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The list doesn't show Pags or nittany03, so we'll have take your word for it.:p

Congratulations both, wetting down at "I-Bar"? ;)
BzB
 
Hozer

Hozer

Jobu needs a refill!
None
Contributor
I don't normally associate with 0-4's ..but when I do, it's with AZ guys....
most-interesting-man-in-the-world-lg.jpg
 
S

subreservist

Well-Known Member
ReserveOfficerRecruiter said:
Well between you and I, that's half of the above zone 1310 selections. I wonder who the other two were, or how the 1 non-select got screwed.
Air Warriors should use us for testimonials: "If you want to make O-4 after 2 x FOS, join Air Warriors!"
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I doubt the non-selects were screwed...the selection rate for reserve O4 has been so high for the last 3 cycles that pretty much everyone is getting it. My guess is the only ones not getting it are folks that are on the books but not actively participating in any way...i.e. folks who don't know or care about their status. Everyone in the IRR are not active members and I'm betting those non-selects fall in that category.
 
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