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O-4 List out (last year)

NUFO06

Well-Known Member
None
Did't they have a select retirement some time ago. Maybe I'm thinking in the enlisted ranks. Well if Torto

They did back 2005-2006. I remember they were having our XO submit an amount that he could be bought out for.
 

squorch2

he will die without safety brief
pilot
I've been talking about the board results (and what they mean) elsewhere and engaged a few senior people on the topic, with some interesting points:
  • Board members are prohibited from keeping count of how many people from each URL designator are selected - to the point that the PERS-8 overseers will confiscate notes if they see people surreptitiously making tick marks, etc.
  • The VFA/VAQ shortage is real, current, and projected to continue through at least the FY17 boards.
  • The database that PERS uses (the name eludes me) is extremely old and clunky, which hinders/slows post-mortem analysis.
  • Evaluation and promotion methods are governed by DOPMA and DODINST 1320.14 - which gives services rather wide latitude.
Some observations of my own:
  • Not only are 13XX selection rates trending radically downward, so are the sheer *numbers* of 13XXs selected.
  • Rates and number selected are trending upward for all other URL communities.
  • The selection rate of people who did non-production tours is at/close to 0%.
  • Despite Naval Aviation being collectively up in arms, there is nothing coming out of the Air Boss or PERS 43 offices. Nothing.
  • PERS has more data than they are releasing - but I'm not sure if they're not unwilling or unable to.
Takeaways for folks on their first or second tour:
  • Do what you want to do - and if you're not consistently #2 or higher, don't expect a boat tour, masters, or JPME to save you.
  • Set yourself up for success on the outside. This means ATP, a masters from a reputable institution (and that EMBA from NPS doesn't really count), engagement with people outside the Navy, maintaining a resume/CV, etc. At a minimum make a LinkedIn account right now and start establishing your network.
  • If you aren't going to a production shore tour, see if there are one year unaccompanied tours or IAs to take. This lets you spend less time away from home than a boat tour and also helps avoid the "find a job while afloat in the Middle East" problem.
  • Yeah, the situation sucks, and many people are passionate about it, but it really is not personal.
*heads back to hidey hole*
 

Pap

Naval Aviator
pilot
I know it's not an option for everyone, but for a vast majority of USN fixed wing pilots, getting orders as a FRS IP is the best way to set yourself up for success, whether it be in the USN or in the airlines. As a FRS IP you can get a ton of Multiengine Turbine PIC (great for an airline career), while having the opportunity to breakout amongst a very large peer group (great for a USN career).

Takeaways for folks on their first or second tour:
  • Do what you want to do - and if you're not consistently #2 or higher, don't expect a boat tour, masters, or JPME to save you.
  • Set yourself up for success on the outside. This means ATP, a masters from a reputable institution (and that EMBA from NPS doesn't really count), engagement with people outside the Navy, maintaining a resume/CV, etc. At a minimum make a LinkedIn account right now and start establishing your network.
  • If you aren't going to a production shore tour, see if there are one year unaccompanied tours or IAs to take. This lets you spend less time away from home than a boat tour and also helps avoid the "find a job while afloat in the Middle East" problem.
I recommend signing up for an IA in between your first sea tour and your shore tour IF you are 110% confident that you want to get out after your 8 year commitment. Taking the IA option allows you to be able to look for a follow on airline job from the comfort of your follow on flying shore tour, while being able to maintain your flying currency. If you go straight to your shore tour right after your JO sea tour, then the USN still owns your ass for another set of sea duty orders (which most likely may not be a set of flying orders).

Good luck getting an interview at DAL/UAL/AA/FedEx without 100hrs in the last 12 months. Not to mention the fact that you would have a rather difficult time getting to the actual interview from the Gulf.
 

JackyB

Active Member
If you are planning on a Airline career post Navy, getting all those necessary P8 turbine hours is going to be a challenge. Sim time doesn't get it either. PIC hours only apply and just to give you a thrill Virgin Atlantic wants probably the most (3000 hrs PIC time). SWA wants a 737 certification($18000) last check + PIC turbine hours.
Volunteer to fly every chance you get and let no opportunity be lost if you are really serious. Good luck!
 

NUFO06

Well-Known Member
None
Have we established the sky is falling yet for the future? Or is this just a couple of bad years due to high accession year groups? According to the PERS-43 website this years in zone forecast was 1243. The next two years are 996 and 991. That is a significant difference.


The leadership is really not getting out in front on this. Has anybody seen an attempt to explain or spin these board results?
 

xj220

Will fly for food.
pilot
Contributor
If you are planning on a Airline career post Navy, getting all those necessary P8 turbine hours is going to be a challenge. Sim time doesn't get it either. PIC hours only apply and just to give you a thrill Virgin Atlantic wants probably the most (3000 hrs PIC time). SWA wants a 737 certification($18000) last check + PIC turbine hours.
Volunteer to fly every chance you get and let no opportunity be lost if you are really serious. Good luck!

I know people who have used their GI bill to get the 737 type rating. I recommend Higher Power in Dallas. They're a good school with a lot of connections in the industry. You may get a 37 classic vs NG rating, but it still counts.
 

Fins Out

Well-Known Member
I know people who have used their GI bill to get the 737 type rating. I recommend Higher Power in Dallas. They're a good school with a lot of connections in the industry. You may get a 37 classic vs NG rating, but it still counts.

Higher Power was very easy to work with if you want to use your GI Bill. They submit all the paperwork for reimbursement, you just need to pay up front. The 737 course was $7,400 (~10 months eligibility) when I did it a few years back. You'll fly either the 737-200 or 737-300 sim for the checkride the second week. The 737 type rating checkride counts for the ATP practical if you need that as well.
 

heynowlookout

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
Higher Power was very easy to work with if you want to use your GI Bill. They submit all the paperwork for reimbursement, you just need to pay up front. The 737 course was $7,400 (~10 months eligibility) when I did it a few years back. You'll fly either the 737-200 or 737-300 sim for the checkride the second week. The 737 type rating checkride counts for the ATP practical if you need that as well.
Crew Pilot Training is much the same. Did my 737/ATP with them a few months back. They're in Miami though which was both more convenient and interesting for me than Dallas with HP.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
The leadership is really not getting out in front on this. Has anybody seen an attempt to explain or spin these board results?
The white paper posted earlier explains it somewhat. Apparently aviation is over-manned in each grade with every other designator at a shortage. Probably would have been nice if PERS disclosed that information before they decided to drastically reduce selection in a community so people could have made contingency plans before being kicked out the door.
 

lowflier03

So no $hit there I was
pilot
Probably would have been nice if PERS disclosed that information before they decided to drastically reduce selection in a community so people could have made contingency plans before being kicked out the door.

Ugh, here we go again with the misinformation about how the boards work. This isn't possible, unless you want to believe some conspiracy theory about how Pers is secretly scheming and violated the board precept, etc.

I think this is due more to incompetence and myopia in the promotion system than any nefarious plot.
 

EODDave

The pastures are greener!
pilot
Super Moderator
The AirBoss was in Lemoore this week talking to all the LT's. No O-4 or above were allowed into his talk. Apparently he explained what happened, what's going on now, and possible fixes. Here is a link from the AB on the Pers website

http://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-n...viation Retention Survey AIR BOSS message.pdf

From what the JO's said about their sit down with the AB, he sounded very forthcoming about what's going on and explained his take on what's going on and took personal responsibility for what happened at the board.
 

EODDave

The pastures are greener!
pilot
Super Moderator
Yeah, that's in reply to the survey. I hear he is putting out a message IRT the board soon, if it's not already out. Not sure if it's going to front offices or everyone. Maybe one of the JO's in Lemoore will expand on what was said in their sit down with the AB.
 

BOMBSonHAWKEYES

Registered User
pilot
From what the JO's said about their sit down with the AB, he sounded very forthcoming about what's going on and explained his take on what's going on and took personal responsibility for what happened at the board.

Not trying to throw stones at the AB or anyone else, but the whole concept of "taking personal responsibility" is irresponsible in this circumstance.

1) He's not responsible for the board results.
2) He can't do anything about this year's board.
3) He did not get infront of anything.

Taking "personal responsibility" would be initiating a supplemental O-4 board to meet foretasted manning shortfalls, or clearly changing the way O-4 boards are conducted for 13XXs in future years. It's a political cliche, not a solution.

The white paper posted earlier explains it somewhat. Apparently aviation is over-manned in each grade with every other designator at a shortage. Probably would have been nice if PERS disclosed that information before they decided to drastically reduce selection in a community so people could have made contingency plans before being kicked out the door.

I can see why BUPERS considers aviation overmanned. If you just look at all of the 13XXs lurking out there, there are plenty of folks who will never fly again who are performing roles outside of the aviation community. But if you get rid of them, then you'll need someone else to take their place, and it takes several years to get that replacement ready to perform the role.

The issue is QUALIFIED DHs, which goes hand in hand with the O-4 board - yet big Navy doesn't see it that way. They can cut the O-4 manning to meet the minimum required levels for the Navy at large, but they're not necessarily getting enough DHs out of this process.

There are a number of guys who are up for DH who are rolling early from their current jobs (like really early) to get back to the fleet. This is all you need to know that there is a shortage in the DH ranks.
 

wlawr005

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
Question: do other communities have a one size fits all DH? I would imagine one SEAL/EOD/Sub DH is the same as every other SEAL/EOD/Sub DH. How about SWO? Are their DH billets interchangable?

Maybe the problem with the stat board is inherently aviation related, seeing as a VFA DH cannot fill the role of an HSC DH, etc. This alone seems to be a community management problem while not necessarily a whole Navy problem. Maybe a one size fits all solution doesn't exist regarding promoting naval aviators.

I ask because if this problem could be addressed, maybe we could get rid of all the non-flying tours built into an aviators career designed to keep them competitive at the stat boards and keep guys in the cockpit longer, making aviation better as a whole.
 
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