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O-4 List out (last year)

azguy

Well-Known Member
None
BLUF.... any SWO with a pulse will pick up O-4. How many jumped ship that could have been eligible for this board years ago...

Did some SWO steal your lunch money back in the day? Come on man- get real, Submariners, SEALs, and EOD techs all screened @ over 90%. NFOs in the high 40s, Pilots in the low 50s. It's not SWOs vs the world here. Something is wrong with how PERS43 is doing business.
 

azguy

Well-Known Member
None
I am a little incredulous that "suddenly" a YG of Naval Aviators are suddenly subpar performers when racked against the rest of the Navy. The numbers don't add up, and when you look back to when my peers and I made O4 you had guys NOT get promoted due to adverse FITREPS.

Az guy, feel free to keep posting. Personally I think your viewpoint is a little myopic, and I haven't really decided whether your just trying to stir the pot or not.

Regardless, I don't have a stake in this discussion, I voted with my feet a year and a half ago. And I hate to read here, and on other forums the angst and professional loss that this has caused some Naval Officers (fellow JOs to you az guy) that have had amazing careers.

Webmaster,

Myoic, sure. I have definitely drank the SWO kool-aid. But let's get a clue here. I have admitted that I may have been wrong on a few points I made here.

As I have said, after seeing a shitbag DFC'd DH of mine promoted AZ on this board, I definitely feel for my fellow JOPA brothers (13XX) that were shitcanned to make room for him. ALL URLs EXCEPT AVIATORS are 90%+, aviators are toiling in the 40-50% range.

In my understanding of how things work, after a year here in DC, this falls squarely on the shoulders on the aviation community leadership. Of course, this point may be disputed, but you would be wrong to do so.
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
Did some SWO steal your lunch money back in the day? Come on man- get real, Submariners, SEALs, and EOD techs all screened @ over 90%. NFOs in the high 40s, Pilots in the low 50s. It's not SWOs vs the world here. Something is wrong with how PERS43 is doing business.
Obviously Azguy is taking a lot of incoming fire...some deservedly for the basketball comment...but that comment shows what the rest of the Navy thinks about production tours and what is essentially a second divo tour as far as your fitrep is concerned.

Azguy, I think a lot of the other comments stem from the notion that SWO is largely an endurance game: Stick around long enough and you'll get your own ship someday. As long as you decide to stick it out through your two divo tours you can pretty much guarantee screening for DH based on attrition alone and the fact that you let Pers 41 sucker you in to a sweet shore tour getting a masters at a school of your choosing while your Aviator brethren fly 12hr days at the FRS or HTs. After DH you get five or so years of shore duty on staff duty while you bide your time for command screen.

Aviators may brag about crew rest but the SWO pipeline sure has the 13xx crowd beat for shore duty.
 

azguy

Well-Known Member
None
Obviously Azguy is taking a lot of incoming fire...some deservedly for the basketball comment...but that comment shows what the rest of the Navy thinks about production tours and what is essentially a second divo tour as far as your fitrep is concerned.

Azguy, I think a lot of the other comments stem from the notion that SWO is largely an endurance game: Stick around long enough and you'll get your own ship someday. As long as you decide to stick it out through your two divo tours you can pretty much guarantee screening for DH based on attrition alone and the fact that you let Pers 41 sucker you in to a sweet shore tour getting a masters at a school of your choosing while your Aviator brethren fly 12hr days at the FRS or HTs. After DH you get five or so years of shore duty on staff duty while you bide your time for command screen.

Aviators may brag about crew rest but the SWO pipeline sure has the 13xx crowd beat for shore duty.

Agree and disagree. WRT, "stick around and get your own ship:" Yes, SWOs have a very high DH screen rate, but from there, believe it or not, our Command at Sea numbers are historically in the high 30s%. But that's not what we're talking about here.

A breakdown of 13XX shore billets would be helpful. Clearly, aviators to go USNA, ROTC, NPS, just like everyone else. At my shore duty, I compete with 13XX that work the same 30 hr week as I do. So, sure, if there are guys working grueling 12 hr days on a regular basis, HELL YES, the PERS 43 rep, or senior aviator member, or even the NFO Flag BOARD PRESIDENT should give them a shout out!
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
Agree and disagree. WRT, "stick around and get your own ship:" Yes, SWOs have a very high DH screen rate, but from there, believe it or not, our Command at Sea numbers are historically in the high 30s%. But that's not what we're talking about here.

A breakdown of 13XX shore billets would be helpful. Clearly, aviators to go USNA, ROTC, NPS, just like everyone else. At my shore duty, I compete with 13XX that work the same 30 hr week as I do. So, sure, if there are guys working grueling 12 hr days on a regular basis, HELL YES, the PERS 43 rep, or senior aviator member, or even the NFO Flag BOARD PRESIDENT should give them a shout out!
And the billets that Aviators could share with a SWO (that aren't underway or at The Building) are seen to Aviators as dead ends. Taking a billet like USNA, NPS, or NROTC sends a very clear signal to the rest of the NAE that you aren't a company man. As I said before the big jobs for Aviators are production with gray aircraft jobs getting preference over orange and white (translates in to FRS, WTI, etc). These jobs really have no real SWO equivalent that I can see since SWO production takes place at sea during the first tour and the concept of a WTI is so foreign to SWO-Dom to not even bother. These are the jobs that NAE has told aviators that are valued for the ADHSB, which used to be the largest hurdle for mid grade JOs (though if you believe that orange and white jobs are equal to gray airplane jobs I have a bridge to sell you). About the only other job you can take as an Aviator and hope to succeed is aide. Second sea tour your best bet is to be a WTI and go CAG staff. Aviator billets on other staffs such as the RONs and ATG are dead ends.
 

Recovering LSO

Suck Less
pilot
Contributor
Azguy is taking a lot of incoming fire...some deservedly

And I can't imagine why?

Did some SWO steal your lunch money back in the day? Come on man- get real

Webmaster, let's get a clue here.

Of course, this point may be disputed, but you would be wrong to do so.

Frankly, you need to start by getting over yourself

This is my favorite....
In my understanding of how things work, after a year here in DC.
 

Mumbles

Registered User
pilot
Contributor
Obviously Azguy is taking a lot of incoming fire...some deservedly for the basketball comment...but that comment shows what the rest of the Navy thinks about production tours and what is essentially a second divo tour as far as your fitrep is concerned.

Azguy, I think a lot of the other comments stem from the notion that SWO is largely an endurance game: Stick around long enough and you'll get your own ship someday. As long as you decide to stick it out through your two divo tours you can pretty much guarantee screening for DH based on attrition alone and the fact that you let Pers 41 sucker you in to a sweet shore tour getting a masters at a school of your choosing while your Aviator brethren fly 12hr days at the FRS or HTs. After DH you get five or so years of shore duty on staff duty while you bide your time for command screen.

Aviators may brag about crew rest but the SWO pipeline sure has the 13xx crowd beat for shore duty.
^ what Pags said....
 
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wlawr005

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
It's amazing to me that something that makes so much sense (let communities promote their own) takes this much damn work to change.
 

lowflier03

So no $hit there I was
pilot
@azguy Good article written by one of the guys who we're "afraid to compete with..."


Downloaded from USNI blog.

Excellent paper that gets to the root of the problem. I found it extremely interesting that overall we are 549 URL officers short of filling all our manning needs. The other gem was this, "Billet fills are prioritized to GSA/IA Billets, operational billets, attaché billets, Joint Warfighting, SECNAV, OPNAV, non-HQ joint billets, 4-Star staffs, schoolhouse staffs and students, and then all other staffs and funded requirements." Why the fuck are we still prioritizing IA/GSA billets?
 

BigRed389

Registered User
None
@azguy Good article written by one of the guys who we're "afraid to compete with..."


Downloaded from USNI blog.

Hmm...the paper also states there shortages from O-4 through O-6 manning overall for all other URL communities, while aviation is the only one overmanned across the board.

It states this year was a statistical anomaly and therefore it seems separate promotion boards would actually make previous board selection rates for aviation look high.
 

Recovering LSO

Suck Less
pilot
Contributor
That's one way to read it. It's also a prima facie case for allowing community managers to, wait for it.....manage their communities.

The various placement dudes and detailers know what they need WRT O-4s and O-5s for the next five years.

I'm not as concerned with the here and now. What's done is done - and at the expense of some highly qualified and talented aviators - but in the long game, really what good reason is there to not make the change?*


*Yes, I understand this would require changes to existing law and instruction.
 

P3 F0

Well-Known Member
None
Apparently not that many people have been voting with their feet. One thing I did not see in CAPT Tortora's paper is how long it will take those overages to work itself out of the system. My guess is we could see another round of this next year. And if Aviation doesn't change the way it screens, we're always going to have the non-competitive O-4's taking up billets.
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
Apparently not that many people have been voting with their feet. One thing I did not see in CAPT Tortora's paper is how long it will take those overages to work itself out of the system. My guess is we could see another round of this next year. And if Aviation doesn't change the way it screens, we're always going to have the non-competitive O-4's taking up billets.
Yeah, what I gathered from the article is that past higher aviator O-4 promotion rates combined with lower ADHSB rates meant that NAE is carrying a lot of deadwood in the form of terminal O-4s who are non-OP DHs. These O-4s won't make O-5 (ever) but because of continuation board policy will be allowed to mark time until their 20. These O-4s are taking up control grade seats that will be unavailable to others.
 

JackyB

Active Member
Didn't they have a select retirement with bonus some time ago. Maybe I'm thinking in the enlisted rank. Anyway, if Tortora's paper is correct, time for the offers to be made!
 
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