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SECNAV to Implement Sweeping Changes

insanebikerboy

Internet killed the television star
pilot
None
Contributor
managing the risk and contingencies

As I get older I realize that being a mission lead is probably 80% this and 20% flying.

Ignorance is bliss and a syllabus can't and won't expose someone to all of the contingencies that time and experience will, regardless of how much of a rockstar they are.
 

HAL Pilot

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
I'm not suggesting a CO can just rifle through someone's medical record...
Actually, I think they might be able to. Unless it's changed in recent years.

When I was a PRP Certifying Officer, I had free access and could rifle through anyone's medical records that was either in or who was being considered for PRP. Many of these people didn't even know they were being considered. In the squadron, it was all officers, all chiefs, all aircrew , all AOs and a couple of maintenance rates. On the CVN is was all Deck, Air and Weapons Department, all Marines and quite a few of the various officers, chiefs and rates from Engineering.

In the squadron, I had an AW2 and a YN2 who assisted me and they had free access to the records too. On the CVN, I had a WTC (nuke weapons tech), WT1 and YN2 helping me with free access. All it took was a letter from the CO designating them as assistants to the PRP Certifying Officer and medical let them into the records room to find and check out any record needed. No questions or restrictions.
 

Uncle Fester

Robot Pimp
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Out of curiosity, what kinds of things were you looking for? I could see psych records for PRP, but what in medical?
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
I'm not suggesting a CO can just rifle through someone's medical record, only that there are certain medical details a CO is entitled to know about those they command and the BCA would certainly (and reasonably) fall into that category. I don't imagine HIPAA would factor in at all.

I think we're saying similar things from different angles.

In the squadron, I had an AW2 and a YN2 who assisted me and they had free access to the records too. On the CVN, I had a WTC (nuke weapons tech), WT1 and YN2 helping me with free access. All it took was a letter from the CO designating them as assistants to the PRP Certifying Officer and medical let them into the records room to find and check out any record needed. No questions or restrictions.

CO's can still designate someone to handle medical data, but what I'm not smart on is whether that authorizes them to rifle through the data. As with anything in the military, I wouldn't be surprised if there were different tiers of access, especially for those handing special items like you dealt with.
 

llnick2001

it’s just malfeasance for malfeasance’s sake
pilot
I was told (don't remember by who, definitely just gouge) that COs are the "custodians" of the medical records and thus have access to them. Anyone else heard this?
 

ben4prez

Well-Known Member
pilot
At the risk of being snippy....

Not too many billionaires under 30 (3?), and would say that they hire a sizable staff to run these companies who answer to a board.

As for football players, those 30 year olds have been playing in college and the pros for 12 years....seems to match with when most start the Strike Lead syllabus....

A syllabus for strike lead isn't just about getting people from a to b, but managing the risk and contingencies so that everyone gets from point a to b to c and back to a after accomplishing the mission and not making a tactical error that creates a strategic problem.

I don't suspect my reply will register, so I would recommend to see a CAG laptop and the questions that CAG asks, and maybe it will make more sense.

Experience matters, no doubt. Never implied or believed otherwise. And yet, when it comes to the crucible of war, it's amazing the leaders that emerge, regardless of age. WWII, Vietnam, and even our current conflicts saw men (and women) in their 20s thrust into incredibly complex combat situations (with only a few years of experience), having to manage multiple risks and contingencies both in the air and on the ground. Part of this was due to the death of superiors, part was due to the inability for some seniors to meet expectations, some was simply due to emergent situations where there was no one around to take charge. To be sure, many senior officers perform admirably, and their experience is a boon (and occasionally an impediment). Junior and Senior (true, not FITREP superficial) superior combat performance is not mutually exclusive.

My broader point is that if you expect minimal results from your most junior people, that's what you will get. If you believe they are capable of great things, and empower them to realize their potential, then you will likely get that as well. I've seen a "soft bigotry of low expectations"* far too often in our military based merely on the rank one sees on a collar device or shoulder patch. Which is why the events I run explicitly ban uniforms, to remove the psychological impediment of "knowing" and dismissing the ideas of junior folks simply because they wear a specific device. Senior leaders are blown away when they realize the guy or girl with a transformational ideas is "only" a LT...or an E-5. This surprise is nice, but also a bit disconcerting...

Some peers and friends in other industries who are younger than I (I'm 33) who have been given the chance to excel, worked incredibly hard, and have realized success early on:

-A lawyer who argued in front of SCOTUS -- and won a landmark case last year
-Multiple business owners who grew their companies from nothing to hundreds of employees, navigating the complex risk and contingencies all entrepreneurs face (after all, Squadron COs and Admirals all have "sizable staffs" that have to report to a "board of directors" -- namely their reporting seniors, and ultimately Congress...the best leaders mitigate risk by delegating to specialists, especially those smarter than themselves)
-Chief speechwriter for the President up until 3 years ago
-Deputy Campaign Manager (#2 in the campaign) for a current major Presidential candidate
-Best Selling New York Times Authors, both fiction and non-fiction
-Nationally syndicated radio show host.
-A scientist who has made the world of evolutionary biology rethink their theories
-A woman who is three years older than I, but is now an Asst Sec Def, and another about my age who is a DASD for Readiness. Even in the DoD civilian community, as sclerotic as they are, there is the path to reward competence rapidly.

There may be no reason in peace time for a military to accelerate promotions or give opportunity based on merit rather than seniority. We may be content with having "people wait their turn." That does not mean they are not capable of engaging on the hard topics -- including a CAG Laptop. Give people a chance to excel, and you'd be surprised what gems emerge.

*-repurposed Michael Gerson quote
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I would love for TimeBomb to chime in since most of us don't seem to know what the rules actually are.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I would love for TimeBomb to chime in since most of us don't seem to know what the rules actually are.
From DOD 6025-18R:

(edited for readability)

- All Commanders who exercise authority over an individual
who is a member of the Armed Forces, or other person designated by such a commander
to receive protected health information in order to carry out an activity under the
authority of the Commander.


...any and all of the protected health information of an individual who is a member of the
Armed Forces may be used or disclosed are the following:



- To determine the member's fitness for duty, including but
not limited to the member's compliance with standards and all other activities carried
out under the authority of DoD Directive...



- To determine the member's fitness to perform any particular
mission, assignment, order, or duty, including compliance with any actions required as a
precondition to performance of such mission, assignment, order, or duty.


- To carry out activities under the authority of DoD Directive
6490.2 (reference (j)).


- To report on casualties in any military operation or activity
in accordance with applicable military regulations or procedures.


- To carry out any other activity necessary to the proper
execution of the mission of the Armed Forces.


My interpretation:
The law gives COs wide latitude here, but you had better be able to justify what you're doing. I know what PRP was like back in the day, but going on a fishing expedition would be difficult to explain today, and rightfully so. I'm not a physician, and my Ops Yeoman certainly isn't. I'm a reasonably well read individual, but if I'm being perfectly honest, I would have no idea what I'm looking for. If anyone is going through records, it should be a physician. If I have a concern about an individual, I would confer with my medical and legal teams and go from there.

There are specific medical screenings for special programs (like PRP). I can't imagine that a CO (or other squadron personnel) going fishing through their people's medical records was anything more than voyeurism justified under the guise of "security screening" that should have already been completed by medical.

Thoughts?
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
- To determine the member's fitness for duty, including but
not limited to the member's compliance with standards and all other activities carried
out under the authority of DoD Directive...



- To determine the member's fitness to perform any particular
mission, assignment, order, or duty, including compliance with any actions required as a
precondition to performance of such mission, assignment, order, or duty.

These are the two that really make it easy for someone to ask additional questions. I'd agree with your interpretation, and it's similar to what I was getting from several Docs.
 

Recovering LSO

Suck Less
pilot
Contributor
These are the two that really make it easy for someone to ask additional questions. I'd agree with your interpretation, and it's similar to what I was getting from several Docs.

Absolutely. For example, hypothetically a MO calls the flight doc:

MO: "Doc, I'm not asking what's wrong with this guy, but is he safe (to himself and others) to be working on airplanes?"
Doc: "He should be using blunted scissors and provided a padded barracks room."
MO: "Thank you."
 

insanebikerboy

Internet killed the television star
pilot
None
Contributor
To play devil's advocate, and assuming the BCA was rolled under the guise of medical, would a BCA failure therefore be considered medically disqualifying and subsequently would that require a medical discharge and not an admin separation? I'm just ignorant to the ability to admin sep someone based on something from their medical record.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
That would be a matter of policy, not law, so however they worded the applicable instruction would dictate how that process would unfold.
 

Uncle Fester

Robot Pimp
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Again, I'm not talking about changing anything, except who performs it. HN Timmy would do the same thing CFLs do now, enter it in PRIMS, etc; he'd just be trained to do the calipers or some other method that seems to fall in the "more accurate but easier to fuck up" category, and do it enough that he's proficient. In theory. And also again, I don't think having a medical-type person perform a procedure makes it medically sacrosanct.

Hell, we already get our straight-up medical info splashed all over in public. You need an anthrax shot, you're Class 3 dental, etc etc.
 

Angry

NFO in Jax
None

There are checks and balances to make sure that the fishing expeditions don't occur. Most Navy medical installations have a Legal Officer or a JAG (if they are big enough) on staff, and any requests for medical records have to go through that individual. Those requests come from the CO and require some justification. I haven't seen it happen (because it shouldn't be done this way), but if a request just said "I need their medical record because I want it", the response from the JAG would be "why, Sir?"
 
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