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WWII history and tactics

Randy Daytona

Cold War Relic
pilot
Super Moderator
Speaking of World War II, someone on Youtube just posted videos from a fantastic TV show in the 1970's called "World War II, GI Diary" narrated by Lloyd Bridges. I've been looking for these videos for years - in particular the Air Force raid on Ploesti. Watching B-24 heavy bombers coming in at treetop level over an exploding oil refineries is incredible.

Here are links to a few episodes.
Midway

Target Tokyo

Iwo Jima
 

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
"They work in pairs! I should know; I went to Annapolis for Christ's sake!"

Only reason I got that was because my grandpa was a ring-knocker.
 

hscs

Registered User
pilot
all tactics are developed either in the vacuum of peacetime or in an engagement against a different enemy/threat. What worked once won't necessarily work again. Green time from recent conflicts for RW guys would involve overland flying and tactics and wouldn't necessarily be applicable in an SUW engagement. A SWTI who had flown DAP missions against HVTs in IRQ wouldn't have applicable experience against a FAC/FIAC threat. If we went to war against a peer competitor I'm fairly positive that our tactics, which have been taught as dogma for a decade plus, would change rapidly numerous times.
I am going to come to the discussion a bit late and say that I have to disagree with you. Yes, a new mission set may not be completely understood by someone who got their green ink in a different mission set. However, that person with combat experience understands how to react to new mission demands and even mission subsets that develop over the course of a war. I would go so far as to say those with green ink think on a plane above those without similar experience - as they understand the innate need for precision in planning, risk mitigation, contingency management, ROE, C2 and execution. We try, via the centers of excellence, to create a realistic combat environment - but it is still a simulation.

Tactics change because the enemy gets a vote - not necessarily because we were wrong in the beginning. A person with green ink understands that - Billy Mitchell applying his knowledge in WW1 to future engagements. War is the ultimate innovation lab.

It isn't also what we teach as tactics - it is the faulty assumptions that we make prior to developing tactics about systems that we expect to have online (e.g. Link, GPS, etc.) during a conflict that makes the future dangerous.
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
I am going to come to the discussion a bit late and say that I have to disagree with you. Yes, a new mission set may not be completely understood by someone who got their green ink in a different mission set. However, that person with combat experience understands how to react to new mission demands and even mission subsets that develop over the course of a war. I would go so far as to say those with green ink think on a plane above those without similar experience - as they understand the innate need for precision in planning, risk mitigation, contingency management, ROE, C2 and execution. We try, via the centers of excellence, to create a realistic combat environment - but it is still a simulation.

Tactics change because the enemy gets a vote - not necessarily because we were wrong in the beginning. A person with green ink understands that - Billy Mitchell applying his knowledge in WW1 to future engagements. War is the ultimate innovation lab.

It isn't also what we teach as tactics - it is the faulty assumptions that we make prior to developing tactics about systems that we expect to have online (e.g. Link, GPS, etc.) during a conflict that makes the future dangerous.
I agree with your points with regards to green time. My point was just that because someone has green time in one mission area doesn't instantly confer them expertise in a different mission area. For example, warfare skills garnered in a DAP mission don't necessarily translate to ASW. However, I agree that the non-warfare area specific skills that you mention such as planning, risk management/mitigation, ROE, C2, and execution can easily crosswalk from one mission area to another.

I also agree that a person with green ink would understand the need for tactics to be flexible and responsive vice dogmatic in a real conflict and that this experience would be valuable in analyzing current tactical deficiencies and adjusting our tactics to counter those of an enemy.

That said, the exact experiences of each conflict don't necessarily crosswalk. Billy Mitchell applied lessons learned in WWI to tactical/operational development yet I don't think there were very many instances of heavy bombers sinking enemy ships from high altitude in WWII. Medium bombers operating at low altitude against enemy shipping and light combatants worked far better.

My point was more that a Navy can think it knows how it will fight a war and will think it has enemy capabilities well understood, but that may not always be the case. understanding and countering enemy capabilities requires gathering that information, understanding the capabilities, understanding how it will be employed, etc. Prior to WWII, the USN did not have a good understanding of the capabilities of the IJN's torpedoes. During the first years of the war, the USN had trouble grasping the true capabilities of the Long Lance because USN personnel based their expectations on USN capabilities and doctrine. However, from the start of the war, the USN had a planned counter to torpedoes in the form or radar gunnery. Unfortunately, radar gunnery wasn't fully understood by the fleet and the capability hadn't been fully integrated into doctrine and tactics. Once USN operators understood radar gunnery the IJN advantage in torpedoes was offset by superior USN gunnery. But, throughout the war, USN systems showed themselves to be sensitive and unstable. Shocks from own ship guns or enemy fire often knocked radar systems offline. Once the radar was offline, the USN operators were put at a disadvantage and the IJN ships with their wonderful torpedoes had the upper hand again.

This past example demonstrates your last point that you won't always have all the toys you trained with. Your high tech toys may be unavailable due to being down for maintenance, unable to handle the rigors of combat, or compromised/mitigated by the enemy. Ideally, USN forces need to be able to fight effectively with or without high tech assistance.

Thinking about this response and the WWII discussion, I think one could make a fair argument that the war in the Pacific was NOT waged against a peer competitor. Even early in the war the technological superiority iof the USN fleet was apparent. Once USN technological advantages such as radar gunnery/fire control, search radar, C2, crypto, manufacturing, aircraft, DC, etc were fully integrated in to the fleet the IJN's only hope was luck and human factors (Halsey taking his whole fleet after decoy at Cape Engano).
 

rotorhead1871

UH-1N.....NAS Agana, Guam....circa 1975
pilot
In 1941 there were entire warfare areas - large-scale amphibious assault and carrier warfare, just to name two - where there had been a lot of thinking and experimenting but very little practical experience. They were aggressive and had trained in what they thought would work, yes; I'm talking about the tactics they'd trained to and how effective they turned out to be. Most of the tactics and concepts developed in the 30s went out the window after first engagements with the Japanese and Germans.
Incidentally, one of the best moves the Navy made was to roll all the guys who'd flown in the early air battles of the Pacific to the training command. That meant that the huge numbers of novice pilots who were being churned out at least had the value of being trained by guys with experience.
The USN was effectively in an undeclared war with the U-Boats from mid-1940 onwards, and there was a lot of development in ASW an convoy work going on between the RN and USN that at least gave us a running start in the Atlantic once war was declared.
The Marines really started thinking about large-scale amphibious assault in the 30s, based on their experiences with interventions in Central America and the Caribbean. But the first landings in the Pacific (Maikin Island and Tarawa, for example) were very nearly disasters, and they learned the importance of beach reconnaissance, among other things. And despite all that, when the Army began planning for its assaults in Europe and North Africa, there were precisely zero Marines on the planning staff.
So today we're in a position where we've been in one or more wars for going on 15 years. We've got very good at counter-insurgency and all the flying that goes with it, especially close air support. But the Serbs were the last bunch we went against that had their shit even remotely in one sock when it came to fighting a technological battle. If it ever goes off against the Chinese, there are a lot of doctrines and weapons that are still totally untested. We'll be much more well-trained and equipped and at least as aggressive as the guys of 1942, but it'll be just as much a plunge into the unknown. Though with the added challenge of having to fend off Su-30MKKs and DF-21s while being pinged to finish our PII and traffic safety training.


cavity magnatron.....
 

rotorhead1871

UH-1N.....NAS Agana, Guam....circa 1975
pilot
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree :)
-Shattered Sword debunks a lot of the "timing" myth surrounding the VB attack and instead discusses shortcomings of the IJN's CAP and AA and the skill of the American VB/VS pilots.
-I think the tactics behind the use of VTs were sound. The IJN used their kankos (VTs) with amazing effectiveness and that was largely because of a superb aircraft in the Type 97 (Kate) employing the wonderfully effective IJN aerial torpedo. The American VTs were completely shortchanged by the Devastator and the Mk14s. Once the Mk14 was improved and paired with the Avenger it was an effective weapon system that was used with success against the IJN, to include IJNS Musashi and Yamamoto. According to wikipedia Mushashi was hit by over 11 torps and Yamamoto by over 10. Of course by that time in the war the technology of the Mk14 had been improved so that it could be dropped at higher speeds and altitudes. This technological improvement begat tactical changes which made the VT aircraft less vulnerable.
-I'd also argue that another factor of the failure of the VTs at Midway was due to the failure of the CAGs to work together properly. American operational art with regards on how to assemble a CAG airborne and attack in a coordinated fashion was not effective until later in the war.
 

rotorhead1871

UH-1N.....NAS Agana, Guam....circa 1975
pilot
The Chinese are pouring enormous resources into a wide variety weapons that specifically counter our capabilities, even the best ones, while we are still largely relying on weapons built to counter the latest Soviet threats from the 80's. Here is to hoping all we do is just shadow box like we did with the Soviets....



the chinese are so bought into the economic world , they will never realistically get into a punch with the US.....if they get a NK crazy leader...maybe...but all their leaders are US educated and they want to be us!!................
 

lowflier03

So no $hit there I was
pilot
the chinese are so bought into the economic world , they will never realistically get into a punch with the US.....if they get a NK crazy leader...maybe...but all their leaders are US educated and they want to be us!!................
I'm sorry, but have you actually studied China enough to back this statement up or do you just like parroting the pundits?
 

rotorhead1871

UH-1N.....NAS Agana, Guam....circa 1975
pilot
I'm sorry, but have you actually studied China enough to back this statement up or do you just like parroting the pundits?


just look at the facts....everything is made in china...and they export everywhere, soon we will have their cars here....they are heavily tied to world trade and derive their wealth from it...they are smart enough not to kill the golden goose.....but they know they can push viet nam and the phillipines around...so they will keep it at that level....there is no upside to direct conflict with the US....they are happy to....and they probably have a plan to challenge us economically with their world bank IMF adventures.....luckily the dollar is still the go to currency even after we printed trillions.......it must be magic!!

keep pumping that 401....
 

Uncle Fester

Robot Pimp
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
That's the exact same argument everyone was making circa 1905...there could never again be a major European war, because all their economies were tied so closely together that it would be financially disastrous. You saw how that panned out.

The situation in east Asia today is, I would submit, fairly similar to Europe around the turn of the 20th century. Booming and rapidly developing economies, new powers emerging and competing with older established powers, large investment in military infrastructure by everybody to keep up with everybody else. Defense spending as a percentage of GDP is rapidly accelerating in all the countries on China's periphery, and it's not because jets and destroyers are cool. They want to trade with China, but they do not want to be controlled by China as a result. That means boosting their own spending, forming alliances and increasing cooperation, and snuggling up to the US - whom most of them view as at least the lesser of two weevils.
 
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