Rotary Wing Roundup (Helos at work in Maritime Environment)

[squorch2]

When I was leaving my fleet squadron there was a lot of concern if there were going to be enough flight hours to fund required quals / currency for everyone.

One proposed solution was the A team, B team and C team. A team is your fully qualified players - NIs, SWTIs, guys who are being groomed for the FRS, etc. They keep their quals and flight time and train the B team. The B team consists of the people who are preparing to deploy and need to be fully qualified for their mission sets. They fly enough to get qualified just in time to deploy. The C team is new PQMs, 2Ps who are returning from deployment and post-cruise HACs that aren't players. They fly whenever there are extra hours or an FCF needs to happen and there aren't enough A and B team people free.

 

[Pags]

With the reduction in flight hours on the fleet side, it may make sense to have 2P-2P flights, if only because you double the flight hours going to 2Ps who are going to be low low low on total time.

I'd expect to see a reduction in the time required to make HAC before that happens. There was talk of that a few years ago when flight hours took their first big cut.

 

[MasterBates]

One proposed solution was the A team, B team and C team. A team is your fully qualified players - NIs, SWTIs, guys who are being groomed for the FRS, etc. They keep their quals and flight time and train the B team. The B team consists of the people who are preparing to deploy and need to be fully qualified for their mission sets. They fly enough to get qualified just in time to deploy. The C team is new PQMs, 2Ps who are returning from deployment and post-cruise HACs that aren't players. They fly whenever there are extra hours or an FCF needs to happen and there aren't enough A and B team people free.

This has "Politics over Skill" written all over it.

 

[Swanee]

Coming soon as well - helo bubbas with 10-15% less total time at winging. Think guys showing up to the FRS with 150-ish hours. With the reduction in flight hours on the fleet side, it may make sense to have 2P-2P flights, if only because you double the flight hours going to 2Ps who are going to be low low low on total time.

Some Navy guys from Primary who want helos have been put on an "accelerated" syllabus. They are having a bunch of stuff cut out of the primary syllabus and then it's off to south field where some other events may be excluded, but they are guaranteed to wing Sept 30 come hell or high water. There are rumors as to what is going to be cut (PAs, Forms, 2nd block of RIs) but it's all speculation.

 

[helolumpy]

One proposed solution was the A team, B team and C team. A team is your fully qualified players - NIs, SWTIs, guys who are being groomed for the FRS, etc. They keep their quals and flight time and train the B team. The B team consists of the people who are preparing to deploy and need to be fully qualified for their mission sets. They fly enough to get qualified just in time to deploy. The C team is new PQMs, 2Ps who are returning from deployment and post-cruise HACs that aren't players. They fly whenever there are extra hours or an FCF needs to happen and there aren't enough A and B team people free.

This was HS in the early 90's. Only 2-3 JO's got Phase 3 qual (mission qual, equate to Level 3 now). With that qual came greater flight time since you were now part of the CSAR crew.

Much animosity developed among the JO's trying to position themselves to get the quals.
(There was no overwater quals at the time, so you were either a Phase 3 (low light missions qual) guy or you were not. Phase 2 (highlight missions qual) guys were limited in when they could fly, so if you weren't Phase 3, you weren't given as many flights.)

Some squadrons picked who got to CSAR Ground School (the doorway to Phase quals) by lineral number. Some squadrons picked their favorites (Please see MB's previous post as to how that worked out)

Please see the HS-15 mishap from 1996 to read more about the fracturing of a wardroom due to some getting quals and others not. Pilots, crewmembers and a SEAL are dead, the CO was relieved and the decision as to who got quals and who didn't was a significant causal factor in the AMB findings.

It was a bad idea then, it's a bad idea now.

 

[squorch2]

I'd expect to see a reduction in the time required to make HAC before that happens. There was talk of that a few years ago when flight hours took their first big cut.

The army has no defined minimum flight time to make HAC - you start the process "when you are ready," according to my buddy the Apache driver. I could definitely see us going that way, but no time soon - there'd have to be ridiculously huge studies done.

 

[squorch2]

Some Navy guys from Primary who want helos have been put on an "accelerated" syllabus. They are having a bunch of stuff cut out of the primary syllabus and then it's off to south field where some other events may be excluded, but they are guaranteed to wing Sept 30 come hell or high water. There are rumors as to what is going to be cut (PAs, Forms, 2nd block of RIs) but it's all speculation.

This is true, both for the fixed-wing and rotary side of the house. On the spinny side all of "C" tactics (SAR, Ship) are cut, people are being double pumped through everything they possibly can be, and they're looking to cut more, but not sure where yet. On the primary side, I'd say your RUMINT is pretty spot on.

 

[SynixMan]

Some Navy guys from Primary who want helos have been put on an "accelerated" syllabus. They are having a bunch of stuff cut out of the primary syllabus and then it's off to south field where some other events may be excluded, but they are guaranteed to wing Sept 30 come hell or high water. There are rumors as to what is going to be cut (PAs, Forms, 2nd block of RIs) but it's all speculation.

Word on the street from my buddies who took it is the only thing cut will be the Day/Night Nav flights at the moment. They're being double/triple pumped through RI sims and flights to get them to Whiting South ASAP.

 

[KBayDog]

This has "Politics over Skill" written all over it.

You mean, just like it is today?

 

[highside7r]

This was HS in the early 90's. Only 2-3 JO's got Phase 3 qual (mission qual, equate to Level 3 now). With that qual came greater flight time since you were now part of the CSAR crew.

Much animosity developed among the JO's trying to position themselves to get the quals.
(There was no overwater quals at the time, so you were either a Phase 3 (low light missions qual) guy or you were not. Phase 2 (highlight missions qual) guys were limited in when they could fly, so if you weren't Phase 3, you weren't given as many flights.)

Some squadrons picked who got to CSAR Ground School (the doorway to Phase quals) by lineral number. Some squadrons picked their favorites (Please see MB's previous post as to how that worked out)

Please see the HS-15 mishap from 1996 to read more about the fracturing of a wardroom due to some getting quals and others not. Pilots, crewmembers and a SEAL are dead, the CO was relieved and the decision as to who got quals and who didn't was a significant causal factor in the AMB findings.

It was a bad idea then, it's a bad idea now.

Man, thanks for bringing that up, not a good way to start deployment. In the Army we don't have a minimum, but a "number" is set within our standardization section, then a similar "HAC board" is convened. Some, like myself will make it quick, but it's on a case by case basis and unit mission (WO1's in Korea, 300hrs total, same canned mission, different day). Some will never get the motivation/ability to become a HAC, so they will stay a H2P (PI in Army slang) for most of their flying careers. My biggest issue is the Army doesn't want to weed guys out in flight school, instead letting the "fleet" units work the issues on/between year long deployments. I've seen several FEB's just in my unit, while only witnessing one in my HS Navy days.

 

[firefriendly]

I mean helicopters are inherently harder to fly than fixed wing, but I think a lot of it has to do with the Fleet requirement for 2nd pilots, and the community culture of grooming a pilot for HAC.

Joyboy, the blanket statements and assumptions you incessantly make never cease to amaze me.

 

[BACONATOR]

Joyboy, the blanket statements and assumptions you incessantly make never cease to amaze me.

I've flown both and that is my experience. Good contribution though. Thanks.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

I've flown both and that is my experience. Good contribution though. Thanks.

Good Lord

 

[phrogpilot73]

I've flown both and that is my experience. Good contribution though. Thanks.

Wow.

Amazingly, everyone on this board that flies helicopters has flown both... However, I am not going to say that flying a helicopter is "inherently" more difficult. Is hovering difficult? Yes in an aircraft that doesn't have AFCS or has AFCS off. Otherwise? Non-event. Straight and level? 'bout the same as flying fixed wing. Any of the mission sets we do? Not that hard. Do you (or I) have any idea how hard it is to fly -2 off of lead while zorching around at 400 knots and working with a FAC on the ground, working through the 9-line, double checking the FAC's laser geometry, not smacking into lead, maintaining SA as to where Iran is, etc... Nope.

This is why you're getting flak for your statement.

 

[BACONATOR]

Wow.

Amazingly, everyone on this board that flies helicopters has flown both... However, I am not going to say that flying a helicopter is "inherently" more difficult. Is hovering difficult? Yes in an aircraft that doesn't have AFCS or has AFCS off. Otherwise? Non-event. Straight and level? 'bout the same as flying fixed wing. Any of the mission sets we do? Not that hard. Do you (or I) have any idea how hard it is to fly -2 off of lead while zorching around at 400 knots and working with a FAC on the ground, working through the 9-line, double checking the FAC's laser geometry, not smacking into lead, maintaining SA as to where Iran is, etc... Nope.

This is why you're getting flak for your statement.

My statement was a generalization based off the discussion of TTT and disparities to wings/aircraft commander in the training command (aka: aircraft that are simply built without extensive AFCS systems etc). From a basic engineering standpoint, rotary is inherently more unstable (ie: more control inputs required) than fixed wing (notice I didn't say jets specifically, YOU did). I PMed the offended parties and if anyone wants to have this discussion via PM, be my guest. My point was not to have another retarded helos vs jets discussion. My comment had nothing to do with "what is harder" and was not meant to start a pissing contest. We all know jets are extremely challenging to fly (or so i've heard about through this site and various people I know in the community).

Let's keep to the topic at hand.