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'New' IFS

tk628

Electronic Attack Savant
pilot
Ok, I've had the fortune of being both and IFS instructor and now flying with IFS graduates, in addition I was stashed at the office where the IFS program is monitored/established in P'cola.

As a CFI in the civilian world, IFS has its inherant flaws. Some people pick things up slower, but they are better in the long run, some instructors don't teach as well as others. For what its worth, I soloed in 2002 in a brand new Piper Archer with over 15 hours, and now I'm at Vance forgetting everything my retired naval aviator instructor taught me a few years back.

Ok, so you have ~9 total flight school who still have IFS contracts-which is better than the any 141 school near an ROTC unit so thats good, but these flight schools are using instructors who have 0 dual given to thousand of hours. Part of the problem is everyone is not getting an equal shot, I can say when I was a fresh CFI, I was scared as hell to send a stud up (one of the reasons I didnt solo until 18 hours). And while that feeling never left me, with experience you learn what to look for when you are putting that $50,000 license on the line, and this is a big variable to consider.

Second what the hell is the point of the solo x-c in IFS?.. I said it then and I'll say it now. There was a time when they had gone to the ghost solo x-c, but it looks like that has changed. There are too many varibles, like WEATHER, or based on the caliber of some of the a/c I've seen used in IFS, that there is NO reason why someone with ~20 hours of total aeronautical experience is really prepared to handle. Fine, I'll give you the solo in 15 hours, but that can be better controlled. This is supposed to be an introduction to flying, but its more like an abbriviated PPL, make up your mind if you want a PPL, pony up the coin. Otherwise introduce some other things, like an ILS or night flying.

From my experience here at Vance, a PPL would do wonders for these studs. With my time, I'm even behind, I can only imagine what its like to go from not even being comfortable with a 172 to less comfortable with a 200kt rocket(for what it's worth the T-6 is a bad a$$ bird, but the Navy is making a huge mistake in buying it, for one the landing gear can't take Navy landings)
 

tk628

Electronic Attack Savant
pilot
Theres really not all that much involved in a pattern solo... other then running the checklist being able to taxi, take off, talk to tower, fly the pattern and land safely... a few times. These are basic skills you start working with them on from day one.




You said where you work it is common for IFS students not to have the area solo complete by the 25hr mark (end of sylabus). Do you get them hours waivers or do you have them pay extra out of their own pocket to get it done or do you attrite them? How do you and your company handle these (repeat) situations?

If it was one student then what you said might be possible, you are claim it is all of them. Perhaps you need to re-evaluate your instruction methods (Both individually and at the program level) and figure out where you can improve on them to get better performance and motivation out of your students.

If its a matter of busy airspace, then take them to a field outside of class C and have them solo there. If its a matter of them not having the skills to do two touch and goes and full stop then a lot of that is on you. Not being able to run a checklist... that is all on you. Not having the frequencies memorized... make them write down a list of common freqs used to put on their kneeboard... during the brief. Problems talking on the radio, get them a copy of the VFR comms CD to practice with outside of the plane.

Garunteed money is great, but you need to give your students the tools to succeed. If your training program is not capable of getting students IFS complete by the end of the sylabus while other flight schools out there are, then the Air Force needs to send their IFS students elsewhere.


The pattern solo is not always the issue. At some places like the where I used to teach, we saw no reason to dump a stud in the pattern if the air work was garbage. Because 2 flights after they solo, is a checkride with the chief pilot. IFS is not just soloing, its stalls, slow flight, steep turns, ect ect. When I was teaching it, we did all the PPL manuvers, to PPL standards, plus a solo by 15, and the solo XC out of the ADIZ of all places.

Unfortunately, if its a matter of busy airspace to take them somewhere else burned into their 15 hours to solo, and 25 hours to finish, and with some students, that was a luxury that wasnt there.

No its not all of them, I soloed on in 6 hours, and one in 14.7, but is that to say the 6 hour guy is going to do better in the long run? Nope, the 14.7 guy is flying a hook and the 6 hour stud washed out. The program has its flaws.
 

Ken_gone_flying

"I live vicariously through myself."
pilot
Contributor
Does anyone with a PPL go through IFS anyway, just to brush up? Do they teach anything that a private pilot with 120 hours wouldn't already know really? I already have my PPL and was just wondering if skipping IFS really saves a lot of time in the process.
 

Mustang83

Professional back-seat driver
None
Yes, it will save you months of waiting around (at least for people waiting to do IFS in Pensacola)
 

Flamedog

Freshly stashed Ensign
Ok, I've searched through the IFS threads and haven't found a definitive answer to my question. Can you complete IFS while you are in ROTC? I'll be in Norfolk, VA going to ODU until May 09 and if I can complete IFS during that time, I'd really like to do that. I'd rather get it complete before I get to P-cola than have to wait for a class-up time after I get down there. Thanks!
 

UMichfly

Well-Known Member
pilot
None
Nope. Unfortunately the instruction has changed so you're only allowed to do IFS in Annapolis, Quantico, or Pensacola. Unless you have a PPL, you'll be doing it somewhere around Pensacola since it sounds like you're a ROTC/STA-21 guy.
 

FlyinRock

Registered User
Just wanted to refresh my presence here. Been too busy trying to get studs out to chat. WX has been sour for us lately so had a few minutes to post.
I'm with SkyWarriors in Bay Minette. Be glad to field any questions or queries if I can.
Rocky
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
Just wanted to refresh my presence here. Been too busy trying to get studs out to chat. WX has been sour for us lately so had a few minutes to post.
I'm with SkyWarriors in Bay Minette. Be glad to field any questions or queries if I can.
Rocky

Are you an IFS CFI? Didn't know guys were going to Bay Minette. Bay Minette, my standard "skinny runway, you'll land hard at night" runway.
 

UMichfly

Well-Known Member
pilot
None
You would feel really good about your landings compared to some of the ones we're doing up there now :D.
 

Herc_Dude

I believe nicotine + caffeine = protein
pilot
Contributor
Are you an IFS CFI? Didn't know guys were going to Bay Minette. Bay Minette, my standard "skinny runway, you'll land hard at night" runway.
My last Primary flight was a night VNAV with some touch and go's at either Andalusia or Florala, gave me my first "skinny rwy, you land hard at night" experience. This was after spending the weekend on the road landing in Tallahassee and Key West (BIG rwys). The T-34 is a tough SOB. :D
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
My last Primary flight was a night VNAV with some touch and go's at either Andalusia or Florala, gave me my first "skinny rwy, you land hard at night" experience. This was after spending the weekend on the road landing in Tallahassee and Key West (BIG rwys). The T-34 is a tough SOB. :D

Landing at night at Florala? <Shudder> I'll take off out of there, but no landings for me, just too dark and too many local residents running out in your way. I'm surprised a -6 guy goes there at night. Well, not really, but you'd think we'd learn...
 

Mustang83

Professional back-seat driver
None
Are you an IFS CFI? Didn't know guys were going to Bay Minette. Bay Minette, my standard "skinny runway, you'll land hard at night" runway.

He is a IFS CFI, I flew with him back in July. They just opened the school in Bay Minette a few months back and have been pushing studs through like crazy
 

Herc_Dude

I believe nicotine + caffeine = protein
pilot
Contributor
Landing at night at Florala? <Shudder> I'll take off out of there, but no landings for me, just too dark and too many local residents running out in your way. I'm surprised a -6 guy goes there at night. Well, not really, but you'd think we'd learn...
Don't quote me on the field, but it was dark, small and in BFE. One of those fields out to the east. The weather was not the best either - I had to finish that day in order to be up for selection that week. We were more than legal but I think in a lot of other situations we would have put it off for another day. -6 IPs always look out for their studs ;)
 
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