Why does the Marine Corps have its own "Air Force"?

[USMCFLYR]

True that, it's a symbiotic relationship as all players bascially need each other for currency. Toughest part is for school houses to get enough controls of various types in set period of time to graduate...really tough when all the Hornets are down at Fallon.

The different Legacy Hornet and Super RAGs have been working with JTACs for a few years now during strike training in El Centro, Fallon, and even Eielson AFB in Fairbanks, AK. Between our 5 different CAS flights, the JTACs get a good combination of more traditional CAS runs (Type I) and Urban CAS (Type II) with sim JDAM and LGB. It has been a GREAT learning tool between the RPs and the students on the ground - even if it does sometimes take half the range time to get the first TOT.

USMCFLYR

 

[Swanee]

The different Legacy Hornet and Super RAGs have been working with JTACs for a few years now during strike training in El Centro, Fallon, and even Eielson AFB in Fairbanks, AK. Between our 5 different CAS flights, the JTACs get a good combination of more traditional CAS runs (Type I) and Urban CAS (Type II) with sim JDAM and LGB. It has been a GREAT learning tool between the RPs and the students on the ground - even if it does sometimes take half the range time to get the first TOT.

USMCFLYR

You can have a Type II control outside of an urban environment right? Type I, II and III is describing control (who can see what and when) right?

 

[phrogpilot73]

You can have a Type II control outside of an urban environment right? Type I, II and III is describing control (who can see what and when) right?

That is correct. As a matter of fact, all JDAM pretty much has to be type II or III. However, urban environments is when type II is most commonly used. Most BC's prefer type I.

 

[vick]

This year's revision of the JCAS pub (3-09.3) specifically addresses the doctrinal role of Army attack assets (CCA - Close Combat Attack) and how to integrate them in JCAS scenarios. We had a lot of support from AH-64s when I was in OEF in '04 but we got off to a rocky start - we were doing some table top planning for an upcoming op and they clearly expressed their thoughts that because they do CCA, not CAS, they didn't need a clearance from me to fire. I told them that if that was the case they were welcome to do CCA elsewhere, but nowhere near us. They eventually came around but the new pub at least provides a doctrinal basis for their support.

For you motivated young'uns there's also good reading in there that spells out Type I,II, and III controls. If you end up in the CAS/FAC/JTAC world you'll get plenty of exposure to those concepts...

http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/new_pubs/jp3_09_3.pdf

 

[Swanee]

For you motivated young'uns there's also good reading in there that spells out Type I,II, and III controls. If you end up in the CAS/FAC/JTAC world you'll get plenty of exposure to those concepts...

http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/new_pubs/jp3_09_3.pdf

We get/got a brief fairy dusted intro into CAS during the call for fire syllabus at TBS. We talked about the 3 types, but only got to "control" a type I at one of the ranges. 3 of us got to control a CAS, (with a real JTAC right there telling us exactly what to say). It was more of a "this is a demo of how a 9-Line happens" but it was enough to spark a lot of interest (especially with the SNAs/SNFOs in the crowd) into the mechanics of how CAS works.

Thanks gents!

:icon_smil

 

[Swanee]

Swanee - didn't you have a particularly "Useless" company commander at TBS? He should have been able to gouge you up...

We did indeed. And he went to some pretty great lengths to make sure we go it, or at least the student "JTAC/FACs" did. It was pretty awesome when he would climb over the side of an empty 7-ton as we were already loaded up like a ninja with a radio during a convoy and play the role of air on station. Add a French or British accent and it was a good time. Learned a lot from him.


In light of all this Joint stuff, there are 15 of us in the pool at MATSG-21 that are being sent to Hurlburt Field to take a JAOC2C course. Should be interesting.

 

[phrogpilot73]

Yes, he was mine in Delta, and I believe he is the Bravo CO as well.

vick and I deployed with him back in 2003, and he was my instructor at TACP school. If anyone can teach CAS - it's Useless... Great dude...

 

[Birdog8585]

In light of all this Joint stuff, there are 15 of us in the pool at MATSG-21 that are being sent to Hurlburt Field to take a JAOC2C course. Should be interesting.

Cool course. Try to get a duty van as we did not and had to make the drive in POVs. Got some good gouge for the tests if you need it.

 

[usmarinemike]

We get/got a brief fairy dusted intro into CAS during the call for fire syllabus at TBS. We talked about the 3 types, but only got to "control" a type I at one of the ranges. 3 of us got to control a CAS, (with a real JTAC right there telling us exactly what to say). It was more of a "this is a demo of how a 9-Line happens" but it was enough to spark a lot of interest (especially with the SNAs/SNFOs in the crowd) into the mechanics of how CAS works.

Thanks gents!

:icon_smil

That was a good day. In the spirit of the other thread, Useless was our FAC for that day. If I ever get done with flight school my hand will be stuck up in the air to be a FAC as soon as possible. Time at OPs in California and North Carolina (among others)had me convinced of that looong ago.

 

[USMCFLYR]

You can have a Type II control outside of an urban environment right? Type I, II and III is describing control (who can see what and when) right?

Absolutely - you can have any type of control in a variety of situations/scenarios. In the way that we are training with the JTACS at this time conforms with what I described. I am sure that the CAS syllabus will be changing drastically over the next few years.

vick -

This year's revision of the JCAS pub (3-09.3) specifically addresses the doctrinal role of Army attack assets (CCA - Close Combat Attack) and how to integrate them in JCAS scenarios. We had a lot of support from AH-64s when I was in OEF in '04 but we got off to a rocky start

I was the 1stBn/2d Marines Air Officer back in '98 during a large exercise at Fort Bragg. Late one night - up listening to the air nets - I was able to *informally* grab some AH-64s out of mid-air and have them perform some recce type missions for my Battalion. I thought it was normal at the time but it seems my Bn CO was quite impressed I'm glad to see that Army aviation is being formally introduced into the Joint world.

USMCFLYR

 

[Coota0]

Going along with this, there is a current and working plan to eventually put all Army Aviators (at least on the active side) through the JSOW course. The plan as it was explained to me was to start throwing it into the initial Flight School pipeline for the WOJG/JOs and add it into something like the advanced/captains career course for the guys already out there.

Which means you and I will fall through the cracks and not get it done for 10 years

 

[Stearmann4]

No they specifically said it wouldnt be a JTAC or FAC(A) course because of the problem with maintaining currency (hard to find a fixed wing or AC-130 at an Army post).

You might be referring to something similiar to the AF's Joint Fire Power Course at Nellis which is classroom and doctrine, but not a "qual". When I was a JTAC it was a prerequisite before actually attending the JTAC school so you had some idea of the players and organization involved. I highly doubt Army aviators would be given anything but an in-house "emergency" JTAC/CAS familiarization, and not the "stamp".

MR-

 

[bobbybrock]

You might be referring to something similiar to the AF's Joint Fire Power Course at Nellis which is classroom and doctrine, but not a "qual". When I was a JTAC it was a prerequisite before actually attending the JTAC school so you had some idea of the players and organization involved. I highly doubt Army aviators would be given anything but an in-house "emergency" JTAC/CAS familiarization, and not the "stamp".

MR-

While deployed in OEF our TAC OPS OFF. showed me a message about this very topic. Seemed like it was more geared toward gun types.
I've seen a lot of guys go to the JOINT FIRE POWER COURSE and really enjoyed it.
The Army is very myopic when it comes to change. If this happens it will take some time.

 

[widow_34]

If you guys want some CAS/JTAC/FAC info, drop me aline. I am currently a FAC-I at our School house In North Yorkshire UK. Ok I am a Brit but I have stacks of tales to tell about you US NAVY guys.All good ones by the way. VFA-87/VFA-15 very very good at CAS.

 

[SteveG75]

What is old is new.

Back in 1993 (when we copied the flight schedule on mimeograph machines and CAS consisted on 9-lines and 6 minute hacks), the USS ABRAHAM LINCOLN and CVW-11 was sent to hang out off the Mog (as in Mogadishu, Somali) after the Blackhawks were shot down in the Task Force Ranger raid on the Olympic Hotel. Also deployed there was Task Force 2-25 Aviation from Fort Drum, NY with OH-58D, AH-1 Cobras and UH-60 aircraft as part of the beefed up response to the deteriorating conditions during Operations Restore Hope.

While hanging out there for two months, the Lizards of VA-95 worked "on-call" CAS with OH-58 Kiowas. We never dropped anything, but ran 9-lines using the Kiowa's lasers to mark targets. The Intruder had an integrated LST (laser spot tracker) in the FLIR as well as the integrated laser designator/rangefinder. Since every building in Mog looks the same at 400 kts, the plan was to use the Kiowas to guide in 500 LGBs or Laser Mavericks.

CAS Intruder style.

BTW, VA-95 did an ECAX (Enhanced Combined Arms Exercise) at 29 Palms between cruises in 1994 and we get drop live loads like this while doing CAS, followed by 500 kt breaks at the airfield (it's in the restricted area, no speed limits).