CMV-22B Osprey Rollout

[KODAK]

Another friend is one of the many experimental test pilots assigned to Army Redstone. He told me years back of a tabletop exercise that I found interesting. Essentially a room of test guys was given a “100%” budget for a future vertical lift/ assault/ scout aircraft to dole out in 10% increments for speed, payload, range, weapons capability, and a couple more factors. Essentially he said that (at best) speed was allotted 30%; his point was that it doesn’t matter how fast a helo/ tiltrotor can go if it outruns its escorts, runs out of fuel, or needs MX that cannot be performed at the battlefield level. V280, Raider, and the rest have a lot of neat capabilities, but at the end of the day they struggle with the less-sexy bits - as with it all, time will tell which direction big Army decides to go in.

 

[KODAK]

Another interesting data point is that for a couple of reasons the VR wing is more and more made up largely of former HSC types; many former COD pilots have left rather than transition. As a result, the “aircraft in search of a mission” types seem to be pushing for the SOF support stuff while many of the other transplants or former COD guys and gals realize that there are more important things to focus on in the near and long term.

Not casting stones - okay, I guess I am a little bit - but just relating some broad data points from friends that fly the COD Osprey and live this stuff everyday. I’m hopeful they are allowed to focus on becoming the undisputed experts at the job at hand (moving pax, mail, and cargo) and aren’t unnecessarily tied up expending energy and capitol chasing that cool-guy HSC mission-of-the-day dragon..

 

[Swanee]

Interestingly, vertical lift for MARSOC is almost entirely outside of the Marine Corps, both in training and in operations. The regular Marines would kick and scream about tasking aircraft to support them.

It's not just vertical lift, it's pretty much that all of their aviation support comes from elsewhere.

But then the SPMAGTF supports other folks of a similar caliber in certain parts of the world.

Why?

I don't know- especially when they're coming from the same piece of concert. I'm sure someone gets FITREP bullets for interoperability and the like.

 

[DocT]

Interestingly, vertical lift for MARSOC is almost entirely outside of the Marine Corps, both in training and in operations. The regular Marines would kick and scream about tasking aircraft to support them.

That wasn’t my experience. If MARSOC submitted a FRAG for support it was usually sought out to be supported at the squadron level as they typically provided great training opportunities in ranges that weren’t typically available.

But agree that they would have to receive most of their support from outside the MAW because we didn’t see lots of those FRAGs.

 

[ChuckMK23]

No speculation here:

LPD USS Green Bay landing mishap Aug '17

"The Marine Corps determined the aircraft crashed due to facing too much downwash and not having the thrust to hold its hover, but the aircraft may also have been carrying too much weight, a Defense Department official told USNI News."

 

[hscs]

This is a good point. If the navy wants to pick up that kind of mission they need to dedicate a squadron or two to the work.

They got told to do it with another airframe and have been kicking and screaming about it ever since the CNO who inked the deal retired. Doubt they would sign up a new airframe. Remember this is the Navy that is kicking and screaming about expeditionary VAQ not supporting the Navy right now.

 

[ChuckMK23]

Big Navy continues to be the most uncooperative/"un--joint" of the services - 200 years of parochialism unhindered by progress.

Wondering where in a contemporary officers JPME journey this Navy First attitude gets nurtured developed. And by the way, I have had these kind of discussions with AF 2 star and get the same feedback. It's unsettling.

 

[KODAK]

Big Navy continues to be the most uncooperative/"un--joint" of the services - 200 years of parochialism unhindered by progress.

Wondering where in a contemporary officers JPME journey this Navy First attitude gets nurtured developed. And by the way, I have had these kind of discussions with AF 2 star and get the same feedback. It's unsettling.

Thread split if we must, but I’ve always considered the Air Force to be the least-joint of the services by a mile.. They seem to think their (only) job is Air Supremacy and conveniently forget that they were part of the Army first for a reason. Their mission (as is ours I might add) is supporting the Army, because nothing happens without an 18 year old infantrymen standing on a street corner. I think the Army gets that, the Navy gets that, and the Marines definitely get it.

 

[croakerfish]

Big Navy continues to be the most uncooperative/"un--joint" of the services - 200 years of parochialism unhindered by progress.

Wondering where in a contemporary officers JPME journey this Navy First attitude gets nurtured developed. And by the way, I have had these kind of discussions with AF 2 star and get the same feedback. It's unsettling.

Compared to the Army? Are you serious?

 

[UInavy]

Big Navy continues to be the most uncooperative/"un--joint" of the services - 200 years of parochialism unhindered by progress.

Wondering where in a contemporary officers JPME journey this Navy First attitude gets nurtured developed. And by the way, I have had these kind of discussions with AF 2 star and get the same feedback. It's unsettling.

No. I don’t know who your 2* buddy is Chuck, but that’s not true. The Navy maintains presence operations in times of peace and requires funding to do that- something that is much different from other services. When other services don’t understand that part of the funding fight, you get conversations like that.

 

[UInavy]

Remember this is the Navy that is kicking and screaming about expeditionary VAQ not supporting the Navy right now.

Not sure that’s an entirely true representation of the budget fight, but I’ll defer to @Brett327

 

[Brett327]

Not sure that’s an entirely true representation of the budget fight, but I’ll defer to @Brett327

Yeah, that's not how I would characterize the issue. People posture about about USAF's role WRT AEA, but at the end of the day, it boils down to finding ways to put $$$ into NGAD. It would also be a mistake to say that Exped Growlers just support USAF. That is an anachronism from the CENTCOM Exped Prowler era. I haven't done a Growler Exped deployment, but I'm pretty sure they're OPCON to CTF-70 for the most part.

 

[Brett327]

Big Navy continues to be the most uncooperative/"un--joint" of the services - 200 years of parochialism unhindered by progress.

Wondering where in a contemporary officers JPME journey this Navy First attitude gets nurtured developed. And by the way, I have had these kind of discussions with AF 2 star and get the same feedback. It's unsettling.

Wrong... consider the source.

 

[Swanee]

Thread split if we must, but I’ve always considered the Air Force to be the least-joint of the services by a mile.. They seem to think their (only) job is Air Supremacy and conveniently forget that they were part of the Army first for a reason. Their mission (as is ours I might add) is supporting the Army, because nothing happens without an 18 year old infantrymen standing on a street corner. I think the Army gets that, the Navy gets that, and the Marines definitely get it.

Perhaps in some (loud) communities that may be the case. But in my community I've supported more Marine and Navy units wearing an Air Force uniform than I ever did wearing a USMC one.

 

[hscs]

Yeah, that's not how I would characterize the issue. People posture about about USAF's role WRT AEA, but at the end of the day, it boils down to finding ways to put $$$ into NGAD. It would also be a mistake to say that Exped Growlers just support USAF. That is an anachronism from the CENTCOM Exped Prowler era. I haven't done a Growler Exped deployment, but I'm pretty sure they're OPCON to CTF-70 for the most part.

That is my point-unless in a direct support role, Navy budget types cry and want someone else to pay the bill.