Flight Surgeons Flying?

[jf69]

I've read throughout the internet that Navy flight surgeons attend a portion of their UPT and spend a lot of time back seating jets, whereas neither of these roles are as common for AF flight surgeons. Can anyone on here chime in about this?

Is any portion of a flight surgeon's flight time actually logged training? I am aware of the dual rated program, but unfortunately that sounds like it's all but exclusively for pilots to transition to medicine rather than the other way around.

 

[croakerfish]

Yes they go through a syllabus that involves logged flight time and they do have annual flight mins. I’ve instructed flight surgeons and physiologists. Despite the fact that they basically don’t have to show any proficiency and can’t really fail, those were some stressful flights haha.

 

[Jim123]

They have only a handful of flights (and simulators) that are meant to represent a cross-section of pilot training. It gives them more credibility as flight surgeons when they're giving you an up chit or a down chit when they have sat at the controls of a helicopter on a low level nav route, tried to land on a night fam (the lit spots at Santa Rosa OLF are sort of in a black hole... I had a few manage to maintain control down to about a hundred feet but that was the closest we ever got), been upside down in a T-34 or a T-6, been in and out of clouds in turbulence, and experienced the sensations that come along with those aspects of flying.

The flights could be stressful but I thought they were tons of fun. The IPs don't really expect the student FS to brief the oil system, expertly explain the nuances of aerodynamics, or anything like that. I always treated the flight physiology briefing items as a cooperative discussion. We'd discuss maneuvers and the procedures for them but in the context of how your brain knows to make your hands and feet move the right way and what mistakes your brain can make that result in the wrong control inputs. I'd usually get the FS in an uncomfortable position in the flight, but do it in a safe, controlled environment, which was kind of the objective of putting them on those flights.

Like that black hole effect on final, if one of my student FSs felt that for himself or herself in the safety bubble of the training command, then so much the better. That experience sharpens their judgment in the future, to confidently tell one of us aviators "no" when it's a tough call and it's the right call. Just as important, those experiences give the FS that much confidence to sign us off when we're back in good shape and aeromedically ready.

 

[hdr777]

but unfortunately that sounds like it's all but exclusively for pilots to transition to medicine rather than the other way around

The TW4 flight surgeon did it last year, so it's possible, but probably pretty rare

 

[jf69]

The flights could be stressful but I thought they were tons of fun. The IPs don't really expect the student FS to brief the oil system, expertly explain the nuances of aerodynamics, or anything like that. I always treated the flight physiology briefing items as a cooperative discussion. We'd discuss maneuvers and the procedures for them but in the context of how your brain knows to make your hands and feet move the right way and what mistakes your brain can make that result in the wrong control inputs. I'd usually get the FS in an uncomfortable position in the flight, but do it in a safe, controlled environment, which was kind of the objective of putting them on those flights.

That is really interesting and makes a lot of sense. It sounds like flight time and instruction is largely for familiarization purposes. Do FS maintain pilot logs, or is there last time formally on the controls in pilot training? What I'm getting at is if one could go into a FS career with reasonable hopes to be a halfway decent aviator when supervised...

 

[HAL Pilot]

3710 used to say a FS can be at the controls for any phase of flight in dual controlled aircraft with an IP in the other seat. Ours used to do takeoffs and landings and shoot approaches. He flew a couple of ship rigs at 200’ with my crew as my PPC was an IP.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

That is really interesting and makes a lot of sense. It sounds like flight time and instruction is largely for familiarization purposes. Do FS maintain pilot logs, or is there last time formally on the controls in pilot training? What I'm getting at is if one could go into a FS career with reasonable hopes to be a halfway decent aviator when supervised...

Pretty sure FS only get special crew time which is worthless for outside flying. As far as flying for fun, yeah I guess they can get some experience from it. I may or may not have let a FS buddy get a couple landings with some supervision.

 

[Brett327]

That is really interesting and makes a lot of sense. It sounds like flight time and instruction is largely for familiarization purposes. Do FS maintain pilot logs, or is there last time formally on the controls in pilot training? What I'm getting at is if one could go into a FS career with reasonable hopes to be a halfway decent aviator when supervised...

Though there are exceptions, in practice, flight docs rarely fly, and they won't attain any tactical qualifications. Flying for them is a novelty perk that gets them out of the clinic now and then.

 

[ea6bflyr]

In that Navy, Flight Surgeon isn’t a career. It’s a first or second tour job then they pick a career track. One of my squadron FS went radiology, another went family practice.

 

[ChuckMK23]

Pretty sure FS only get special crew time which is worthless for outside flying. As far as flying for fun, yeah I guess they can get some experience from it. I may or may not have let a FS buddy get a couple landings with some supervision.

I very much recall training FS @ TW5 and they logged FP time on what was then the "yellow sheet" - and not SCT. There was a time when VT's took FS students to solo.

The AF has FS that very much don't fly - and are vaguelly associated with a wing. The AF started a program 4-5 years ago putting FS through a Private Pilot syllabus in the SR-22 and expanded it to Physiologists - for the very reason that they were not well regarded for understanding the flying culture. That program is conducted nationally by a contractor (although we are trying to get CAP to do that mission for the AF)

 

[scoolbubba]

Yes they go through a syllabus that involves logged flight time and they do have annual flight mins. I’ve instructed flight surgeons and physiologists. Despite the fact that they basically don’t have to show any proficiency and can’t really fail, those were some stressful flights haha.

I forgot that even though they are doctors and are probably smart enough to fly, they don't know a single thing about flying. They're not even at a fam-1 level of proficiency.

 

[Rugger]

My father was a Navy FS in the 70s & solo’d in some sort of fixed wing training aircraft. I think that part of the syllabus went away in exchange for time in the HTs, which is what I did in the early 2000s. (Truth be told, my flying skills weren’t threatening anyone’s job security.) Two of my colleagues became dual designated after their first FS tours - in S3s & tomcats. Another one completed most of the HT syllabus as the TW surgeon but I don’t recall why he didn’t get winged. All of us went back to specialize, and (I think) all of us subspecialized & made O6, as well as returned to non-medical part of the Navy for a tour or two. Some of those jobs include carrier SMO & MAW/MAG surgeon.

From what my AF, Army, & CG buddies tell me, they do very little flying in FS school or post wings.

Hope that helps

 

[ChuckMK23]

My father was a Navy FS in the 70s & solo’d in some sort of fixed wing training aircraft. I think that part of the syllabus went away in exchange for time in the HTs, which is what I did in the early 2000s. (Truth be told, my flying skills weren’t threatening anyone’s job security.) Two of my colleagues became dual designated after their first FS tours - in S3s tomcats. Another one completed most of the HT syllabus as the TW surgeon but I don’t recall why he didn’t get winged. All of us went back to specialize, and (I think) all of us subspecialized & made O6, as well as returned to non-medical part of the Navy for a tour or two. Some of those jobs include carrier SMO & MAW/MAG surgeon.

From what my AF, Army, & CG buddies tell me, they do very little flying in FS school or post wings.

Hope that helps

Can we get the lady a set of FS wings?

 

[TimeBomb]

The requirement for flight surgeons to solo in order to get FS wings went away in the 80s if I remember correctly. If the stud didn't solo, he was designated as an AME and sent out to the fleet in that capacity. When I went through, we went through API with the SNAs, and then out to Whiting to either the VTs or HTs. A couple of my classmates got pretty far along in the primary syllabus, but the flying phase of the FS curriculum was closed ended and really precluded getting to solo.

Some of the old-timer flight surgeons at NAMI when I was there were Vietnam-era flight surgeons, and a few had logged combat time and had Air Medals. Different times, and raises some interesting Geneva Convention questions.

The dual-designator program seems to go in and out of favor. I've known a few, but it seems a niche job that big Navy doesn't quite seem to know what to do with.

All said, I loved every minute of being a flight surgeon. OK, not the helo dunker. But the rest, yeah.
V/R

 

[exNavyOffRec]

The requirement for flight surgeons to solo in order to get FS wings went away in the 80s if I remember correctly. If the stud didn't solo, he was designated as an AME and sent out to the fleet in that capacity. When I went through, we went through API with the SNAs, and then out to Whiting to either the VTs or HTs. A couple of my classmates got pretty far along in the primary syllabus, but the flying phase of the FS curriculum was closed ended and really precluded getting to solo.

Some of the old-timer flight surgeons at NAMI when I was there were Vietnam-era flight surgeons, and a few had logged combat time and had Air Medals. Different times, and raises some interesting Geneva Convention questions.

The dual-designator program seems to go in and out of favor. I've known a few, but it seems a niche job that big Navy doesn't quite seem to know what to do with.

All said, I loved every minute of being a flight surgeon. OK, not the helo dunker. But the rest, yeah.
V/R

I remember someone on this site was talking about flight surgeon(s) that were also A-6 pilots or B/N's, and that it was a long time ago.